Modest appearal

[IM4given]

[quote="kindofblue1977"]I still do not understand about the dress/pants thing. I do not see in the Bible where it says women must wear dresses. I guess I do not understand because I did not grow up in or have never been part of a church where woman cannot wear pants...it has simply never been an issue. Neither has hair length. My wife has had short and long hair, and I like it both ways. It really makes no difference to me. I have had longer hair and short hair, and that makes no difference to me either.

Someone mentioned beer, and I cannot fathom how it is wrong for me to drink a beer. I have some good Belgian beer at home right now. I have never been drunk, and do not behave in a wild manner, so I cannot see how having a beer is wrong. I had a glass of wine last night with dinner. I cannot see how that is wrong either, since Jesus had wine at the last supper, and made water into wine at the wedding feast. I do understand where many folks come from on this issue, unlike the pants/hair issue, which I still cannot understand, though I am trying. However, I do not see where people say drinking is absolutely wrong. From my study of Scriptures, it is a sin to get drunk, but not a sin to have a drink. I also understand I am not to be a stumbling block, so I would never offer a beer to a recovering alcoholic or to someone who does have a problem with it.

I am asking an honest question here. With all of these rules regarding how one should dress, how long to wear your hair, etc., how is that not on the road to becoming like the Pharisees who make out extensive rules to follow? I am not accusing anyone here of being Pharisee like....do not misunderstand me, please...I believe each person here has a good heart. This is an honest question. I see that women should dress modestly, but isn't that intricately related to the culture we live in? For example, in Jesus' day, everyone wore tunics and robes....should we not return to that if we read the Bible literally? I am being serious and asking serious questions here, trying to understand where you are coming from.[/quote]

Okay - if you were to join the Army or some other branch of the military - the first thing they do is take away all of your civilian clothes and issue you a uniform that distinguishes you by your rank and your branch of service. Then they send you through boot camp and teach you how to become a military soldier. Being a Christian is not much different, IMHO. You are now in the Lord's Army. You surrender all that was your former self to God, and in return he gives you the grace you need to look and act like a Christ Folllower in His ranks. Does that make any sense? It is not about being a Pharisee or feeling like one person is any better than any other. We just follow a different Comannder is all. :amen:

[no name joe]

[quote="IM4given"]Okay - if you were to join the Army or some other branch of the military - the first thing they do is take away all of your civilian clothes and issue you a uniform that distinguishes you by your rank and your branch of service. Then they send you through boot camp and teach you how to become a military soldier. Being a Christian is not much different, IMHO. You are now in the Lord's Army. You surrender all that was your former self to God, and in return he gives you the grace you need to look and act like a Christ Folllower in His ranks. Does that make any sense? It is not about being a Pharisee or feeling like one person is any better than any other. We just follow a different Comannder is all. :amen:[/quote]

I understand that. That is not the problem I am having. The problem I have is that the Bible says women are to dress modestly. Beyond that, what is the standard? Why is there such a problem with pants? Like I said, I find that pants on women are many times more modest than dresses. Shouldn't modesty be the rule, and not specific types of clothing? That is where I do not understand. I don't understand why pants are good, and dresses are bad. As long as all clothing is modest, what is the problem? SInce the Biblical standard is modesty, it seems to me that targeting specific items of clothing is making rules that are not there.

What men and women wore in Biblical times is very different that what clothing is like today. The standard is modesty....that may be applied differently in different cultures and where clothing is very different.

[John81]

[quote="kindofblue1977"]

I understand that. That is not the problem I am having. The problem I have is that the Bible says women are to dress modestly. Beyond that, what is the standard? Why is there such a problem with pants? Like I said, I find that pants on women are many times more modest than dresses. Shouldn't modesty be the rule, and not specific types of clothing? That is where I do not understand. I don't understand why pants are good, and dresses are bad. As long as all clothing is modest, what is the problem? SInce the Biblical standard is modesty, it seems to me that targeting specific items of clothing is making rules that are not there.

What men and women wore in Biblical times is very different that what clothing is like today. The standard is modesty....that may be applied differently in different cultures and where clothing is very different.[/quote]

The idea that women should wear dresses, not pants, doesn't actually stem from the modesty aspect but from the statements that men and women are to dress differently; not like each other.

True, a pair of pants can be very modest, however if pants are men's clothing then a woman wearing them would be violating the Scriptural command for men and women not to dress alike.

Scripture says men are to have short hair and women are to have long hair. However, Scripture doesn't clearly define what constitutes short and long. (Which, looking back, I guess you addressed in another post, not the one I quoted from :smile )

It's not about what we like or prefer or think is okay, it's about determining what Scripture says and means and applying it to our lives.

[John81]

[quote="IM4given"]

Okay - if you were to join the Army or some other branch of the military - the first thing they do is take away all of your civilian clothes and issue you a uniform that distinguishes you by your rank and your branch of service. Then they send you through boot camp and teach you how to become a military soldier. Being a Christian is not much different, IMHO. You are now in the Lord's Army. You surrender all that was your former self to God, and in return he gives you the grace you need to look and act like a Christ Folllower in His ranks. Does that make any sense? It is not about being a Pharisee or feeling like one person is any better than any other. We just follow a different Comannder is all. :amen:[/quote]

:goodpost:

[no name joe]

[quote="John81"][quote="kindofblue1977"]

I understand that. That is not the problem I am having. The problem I have is that the Bible says women are to dress modestly. Beyond that, what is the standard? Why is there such a problem with pants? Like I said, I find that pants on women are many times more modest than dresses. Shouldn't modesty be the rule, and not specific types of clothing? That is where I do not understand. I don't understand why pants are good, and dresses are bad. As long as all clothing is modest, what is the problem? SInce the Biblical standard is modesty, it seems to me that targeting specific items of clothing is making rules that are not there.

What men and women wore in Biblical times is very different that what clothing is like today. The standard is modesty....that may be applied differently in different cultures and where clothing is very different.[/quote]

The idea that women should wear dresses, not pants, doesn't actually stem from the modesty aspect but from the statements that men and women are to dress differently; not like each other.

True, a pair of pants can be very modest, however if pants are men's clothing then a woman wearing them would be violating the Scriptural command for men and women not to dress alike.

Again, I am not being argumentative, I'm trying to understand where this comes from, because it is completely foreign to me.
Scripture says men are to have short hair and women are to have long hair. However, Scripture doesn't clearly define what constitutes short and long. (Which, looking back, I guess you addressed in another post, not the one I quoted from :smile )

It's not about what we like or prefer or think is okay, it's about determining what Scripture says and means and applying it to our lives.[/quote]


But in today's culture, I do not see where pants are a man's item of clothing. Pants made for women are cut differently and look different than pants made for a man. In fact, I would venture to guess there are more differnet pants mande specifically for women than for men (as with all clothing).

Another example....in Scotland, men wear kilts.....a masculine article of clothing. Here in the US, wearing something like a kilt would be considered a woman's article of clothing. So doesn't this completely depend upon the culture you live in?

[John81]

[quote="kindofblue1977"]


But in today's culture, I do not see where pants are a man's item of clothing. Pants made for women are cut differently and look different than pants made for a man. In fact, I would venture to guess there are more differnet pants mande specifically for women than for men (as with all clothing).

Another example....in Scotland, men wear kilts.....a masculine article of clothing. Here in the US, wearing something like a kilt would be considered a woman's article of clothing. So doesn't this completely depend upon the culture you live in?[/quote]

And that's all part of the arguement now isn't it!?

Are pants men's only clothing or are they not? Robes of the past were made differently for men and women yet they were both wearing robes. Can the same apply to pants?

In Scotland a man's kilt is different from a woman's skirt (forgot the name of Scottish women's skirts). They are similar yet distinctly different; does that make them wrong, or unbiblical or does that make them acceptable and biblical?

[IM4given]

[quote="John81"][quote="kindofblue1977"]


But in today's culture, I do not see where pants are a man's item of clothing. Pants made for women are cut differently and look different than pants made for a man. In fact, I would venture to guess there are more differnet pants mande specifically for women than for men (as with all clothing).

Another example....in Scotland, men wear kilts.....a masculine article of clothing. Here in the US, wearing something like a kilt would be considered a woman's article of clothing. So doesn't this completely depend upon the culture you live in?[/quote]

And that's all part of the arguement now isn't it!?

Are pants men's only clothing or are they not? Robes of the past were made differently for men and women yet they were both wearing robes. Can the same apply to pants?

In Scotland a man's kilt is different from a woman's skirt (forgot the name of Scottish women's skirts). They are similar yet distinctly different; does that make them wrong, or unbiblical or does that make them acceptable and biblical?[/quote]


Only a true Scot can wear the manly kilt! :tum

[John81]

[quote="IM4given"][quote="John81"][quote="kindofblue1977"]


But in today's culture, I do not see where pants are a man's item of clothing. Pants made for women are cut differently and look different than pants made for a man. In fact, I would venture to guess there are more differnet pants mande specifically for women than for men (as with all clothing).

Another example....in Scotland, men wear kilts.....a masculine article of clothing. Here in the US, wearing something like a kilt would be considered a woman's article of clothing. So doesn't this completely depend upon the culture you live in?[/quote]

And that's all part of the arguement now isn't it!?

Are pants men's only clothing or are they not? Robes of the past were made differently for men and women yet they were both wearing robes. Can the same apply to pants?

In Scotland a man's kilt is different from a woman's skirt (forgot the name of Scottish women's skirts). They are similar yet distinctly different; does that make them wrong, or unbiblical or does that make them acceptable and biblical?[/quote]


Only a true Scot can wear the manly kilt! :tum[/quote]

Aye! And ye can see such men at fine Highland Games. :thumb

[PastorHarrison]

Most of the angles are covered in the various postings....but consider this, and I'd point out I once had long hair (and at the time I didn't consider it long nor have a problem with it - but then, I didn't know the Bible from a t.v. guide either).

But consider - If a man walked into your office or onto your jobsite, or into your living room, wearing a dress, make-up and high heels - most of us (not all of course) but most of Christian men would say or at least think "this cross dressing perve is a sin sick puppet of the Devil". We'd know it was wrong for a man to be wearing a dress..... why? Uhh....duhhh....dress's are a woman's garment and we'd all know it (luke 12:57).

We've gotten used to women in pants in our culture & era....which means we've got baggage from every aspect of our lives...magazines, tv, movies, public school, college every venue of our society has programmed us to think women in pants is ok.... Some Christians surrender more of their lives to God than others.... and as such, some Christians ain't gone truly belong to God until he calls'em home.

I think, IMHO, one thing is for sure..... and some of the brethren ain't gone like this, but I say you may drink beer and smoke and gamble and cuss and cheat and dress in contradiction to nature and God here.... you may snort powder Saturday night and lead Sunday school classes in the morning (yeah I knew one of those) but when Jesus comes to get us - men in pony tails and ear rings & women in pants with crew cuts..... that nonsense will be over because the word of God wont be "optional" up there brethren! It ought not be so here if we love Jesus....

Come on Lord!!! Right now would be perfect!!!

[IM4given]

[quote="PastorHarrison"]Most of the angles are covered in the various postings....but consider this, and I'd point out I once had long hair (and at the time I didn't consider it long nor have a problem with it - but then, I didn't know the Bible from a t.v. guide either).

But consider - If a man walked into your office or onto your jobsite, or into your living room, wearing a dress, make-up and high heels - most of us (not all of course) but most of Christian men would say or at least think "this cross dressing perve is a sin sick puppet of the Devil". We'd know it was wrong for a man to be wearing a dress..... why? Uhh....duhhh....dress's are a woman's garment and we'd all know it (luke 12:57).

We've gotten used to women in pants in our culture & era....which means we've got baggage from every aspect of our lives...magazines, tv, movies, public school, college every venue of our society has programmed us to think women in pants is ok.... Some Christians surrender more of their lives to God than others.... and as such, some Christians ain't gone truly belong to God until he calls'em home.

I think, IMHO, one thing is for sure..... and some of the brethren ain't gone like this, but I say you may drink beer and smoke and gamble and cuss and cheat and dress in contradiction to nature and God here.... you may snort powder Saturday night and lead Sunday school classes in the morning (yeah I knew one of those) but when Jesus comes to get us - men in pony tails and ear rings & women in pants with crew cuts..... that nonsense will be over because the word of God wont be "optional" up there brethren! It ought not be so here if we love Jesus....

Come on Lord!!! Right now would be perfect!!![/quote]

Preach it brother! :amen: :goodpost:

[PastorHarrison]

[quote="IM4given"][quote="John81"]

What constitutes "long enough" for some isn't long enough for others. Whose view are we to abide by?

[/quote]

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard

[IM4given]

[quote="PastorHarrison"][quote="IM4given"][quote="John81"]

What constitutes "long enough" for some isn't long enough for others. Whose view are we to abide by?

[/quote]

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard

[PastorHarrison]

[quote="kindofblue1977"]Someone mentioned beer, and I cannot fathom how it is wrong for me to drink a beer. I have some good Belgian beer at home right now. I have never been drunk, and do not behave in a wild manner, so I cannot see how having a beer is wrong. I had a glass of wine last night with dinner. I cannot see how that is wrong either, since Jesus had wine at the last supper, and made water into wine at the wedding feast. I do understand where many folks come from on this issue, unlike the pants/hair issue, which I still cannot understand, though I am trying. However, I do not see where people say drinking is absolutely wrong. From my study of Scriptures, it is a sin to get drunk, but not a sin to have a drink. I also understand I am not to be a stumbling block, so I would never offer a beer to a recovering alcoholic or to someone who does have a problem with it.[/quote]

You really want an honest answer?..... Try this and see how the Holy Spirit deals with it: Next time you go to buy your booz, wine, beer whatever name it has - be it at walmart or a liquor store, take some gospel tracts and a N.T. with you. As the clerk rings it all up, take out your N.T. and a tract and give her the gospel..... see just how much damage the booz has done to your witness for Jesus. Ask her about her soul and convey your sincere interest in sharing the glorious gospel that has so changed your life since you were saved..... I suspect trying this at 3 or 4 local beer joints or liqour stores ought pretty well settle the matter for you.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[PreacherE]

[quote="PastorHarrison"][quote="kindofblue1977"]Someone mentioned beer, and I cannot fathom how it is wrong for me to drink a beer. I have some good Belgian beer at home right now. I have never been drunk, and do not behave in a wild manner, so I cannot see how having a beer is wrong. I had a glass of wine last night with dinner. I cannot see how that is wrong either, since Jesus had wine at the last supper, and made water into wine at the wedding feast. I do understand where many folks come from on this issue, unlike the pants/hair issue, which I still cannot understand, though I am trying. However, I do not see where people say drinking is absolutely wrong. From my study of Scriptures, it is a sin to get drunk, but not a sin to have a drink. I also understand I am not to be a stumbling block, so I would never offer a beer to a recovering alcoholic or to someone who does have a problem with it.[/quote]

You really want an honest answer?..... Try this and see how the Holy Spirit deals with it: Next time you go to buy your booz, wine, beer whatever name it has - be it at walmart or a liquor store, take some gospel tracts and a N.T. with you. As the clerk rings it all up, take out your N.T. and a tract and give her the gospel..... see just how much damage the booz has done to your witness for Jesus. Ask her about her soul and convey your sincere interest in sharing the glorious gospel that has so changed your life since you were saved..... I suspect trying this at 3 or 4 local beer joints or liqour stores ought pretty well settle the matter for you.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.[/quote]

That's what I call preaching, brother. :amen: :amen:

[IM4given]

[quote="PreacherE"][quote="PastorHarrison"][quote="kindofblue1977"]Someone mentioned beer, and I cannot fathom how it is wrong for me to drink a beer. I have some good Belgian beer at home right now. I have never been drunk, and do not behave in a wild manner, so I cannot see how having a beer is wrong. I had a glass of wine last night with dinner. I cannot see how that is wrong either, since Jesus had wine at the last supper, and made water into wine at the wedding feast. I do understand where many folks come from on this issue, unlike the pants/hair issue, which I still cannot understand, though I am trying. However, I do not see where people say drinking is absolutely wrong. From my study of Scriptures, it is a sin to get drunk, but not a sin to have a drink. I also understand I am not to be a stumbling block, so I would never offer a beer to a recovering alcoholic or to someone who does have a problem with it.[/quote]

You really want an honest answer?..... Try this and see how the Holy Spirit deals with it: Next time you go to buy your booz, wine, beer whatever name it has - be it at walmart or a liquor store, take some gospel tracts and a N.T. with you. As the clerk rings it all up, take out your N.T. and a tract and give her the gospel..... see just how much damage the booz has done to your witness for Jesus. Ask her about her soul and convey your sincere interest in sharing the glorious gospel that has so changed your life since you were saved..... I suspect trying this at 3 or 4 local beer joints or liqour stores ought pretty well settle the matter for you.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.[/quote]

That's what I call preaching, brother. :amen: :amen:[/quote]

:amen: and :amen: