Dispensationalism

[Brother Rick]

Ha, I never accused you of being anti-Semitic, brother. Get your dispensationalists in this thread correct.

I just accused you of staging a holdup and stealing Abram's promises, that's all.

Oh, by the way, I don't have to justify God allowing 2/3 of future Jews to be killed in the future Tribulation period anymore than I have to justify most Jews dying and going to Hell today. The Bible is the Bible, and the corporate enemy of the gospel in Romans 11:28 still has the promise to one day have her sins taken away in Romans 11:26.

[Covenanter]

Ha, I never accused you of being anti-Semitic, brother. Get your dispensationalists in this thread correct.

No, but Wilchbla did.

I just accused you of staging a holdup and stealing Abram's promises, that's all.

You do need to answer why the millennium is ONLY 1,000 years, whereas God's promises are everlasting.

Oh, by the way, I don't have to justify God allowing 2/3 of future Jews to be killed in the future Tribulation period anymore than I have to justify most Jews dying and going to Hell today. The Bible is the Bible, and the corporate enemy of the gospel in Romans 11:28 still has the promise to one day have her sins taken away in Romans 11:26.

Today they do have a Gospel, they don't have to wait for the tribulation for some of them to be saved.
2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.) In fulfilment of:

Isa 49:8 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

[Brother Rick]

God's promises are everlasting, that why Abraham gets the land during the Millennium and gets it again when God recreates the Earth again. As far as the Jews go, of course they can get saved now, no one has said otherwise.

I repeat: the corporate enemy of the gospel in Romans 11:28 still has the promise to one day have her sins taken away in Romans 11:26.

[Invicta]

God's promises are everlasting, that why Abraham gets the land during the Millennium and gets it again when God recreates the Earth again.

Do you see that as the restitution of all things?

[Covenanter]

God's promises are everlasting, that why Abraham gets the land during the Millennium and gets it again when God recreates the Earth again. As far as the Jews go, of course they can get saved now, no one has said otherwise.

How do you see the future millennium, populated increasingly by the ungodly, overwhelmingly after Satan's release, as the gloriously fulfilment of the promises? Why not just see the NH&NE as the fulfilment - especially it obviously is the eternal fulfilment?

Your idea of the millennium does not agree with God's promises, especially as, according to Scripture, only the souls, not the bodies, of the martyrs are living & reigning with Christ.

Rev. 20 reads remarkably like the present age, coming to an end with Jesus return for resurrection & judgment - see 2 Thess. 1.


I repeat: the corporate enemy of the gospel in Romans 11:28 still has the promise to one day have her sins taken away in Romans 11:26.

Do you consider national Israel "the corporate enemy of the gospel" after God's judgment on them in AD 70? That sound's like a good reason for the persecution of the Jews - VERY antisemitic. Especially as they are scheduled for slaughter in the tribulation before the survivors convert.

Why do disps stop reading Romans before they get to ch. 15?

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

[Covenanter]

Can anyone point me to the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that prophesy the future establishment of Israel as a nation? And a future millennium (apart from Rev. 20.)

[JerryNumbers]

Its been pointed out. You, like many others, when your shown something you disagree with, you claim no biblical proof has been offered. And some of those post explaining this has been quite good.

[Brother Rick]

There are clear and disctinct differences between today's age, the Millennium, and the NH&NE - we've covered them already. If you don't remember, you can start by explaining to me where the "Beloved City" is today and why people who die at 100 years old today aren't considered "kids," because they don't die at all in the NH & NE.

Romans 15 is talking about spiritual Israel, Romans 11 covers national Israel.

Your suggestion that believing that national Israel is the enemy of the Gospel in Romans 11 is somehow a good idea for persecution of the Jews is as revolting as it is stupid. No dispensationalist here, or any other that I've certainly read has ever suggested such a terrible thing and it's really surprising that you'd broad-brush us that way.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Its been pointed out. You, like many others, when your shown something you disagree with, you claim no biblical proof has been offered. And some of those post explaining this has been quite good.

I'm still waiting for Scriptures for this question:

Can anyone point me to the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that prophesy the future establishment of Israel as a nation? And a future millennium (apart from Rev. 20.)

I am aware of OT teaching on the glorious future of Israel, & of the NH&NE passage in Isaiah, but that NH&NE includes death of sinners. We need to interpret it in the light of NT teaching. If it's the millennium, it's not the NH&NE, & if it's the NH&NE there should be death. IMO it is an idealised future envisaged as the nation living in perfect peace & communion with God. That idealised future is secured by our Lord Jesus by his saving work, & ultimately realised in the NH&NE after the resurrection.

[Covenanter]

I would like to know what these are as well.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Covenanter

[Seth Doty]

I'm still waiting for Scriptures for this question:

If you will not listen to dozens of crystal clear passages in the OT what difference would the NT make anyway? The OT is not any less the word of God than the NT. The NT is quite clear that if people will not believe and reject the truth found in the OT they will not believe the truth at all no matter who it comes from.

"John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

"Luke 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

[Covenanter]

Seth-Doty, I do believe Moses & the prophets, but my understanding of OT prophecy is through the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles as he opened to us the scriptures.

They have much to say both concerning OT prophecy & the coming again of the Lord Jesus for resurrection & judgement. They say nothing about a future millennial dispensation which begins well, with the personal reign of Jesus on earth, with his resurrected saints, & ends with a world-wide rebellion, when divine intervention rescues the saints & destroys the earth & the wicked. Their vision is of the NH&NE, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Brother Rick]

I'm still waiting for Scriptures for this question:

Can anyone point me to the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that prophesy the future establishment of Israel as a nation? And a future millennium (apart from Rev. 20.)

I am aware of OT teaching on the glorious future of Israel, & of the NH&NE passage in Isaiah, but that NH&NE includes death of sinners. We need to interpret it in the light of NT teaching. If it's the millennium, it's not the NH&NE, & if it's the NH&NE there should be death. IMO it is an idealised future envisaged as the nation living in perfect peace & communion with God. That idealised future is secured by our Lord Jesus by his saving work, & ultimately realised in the NH&NE after the resurrection.

No, brother, that's one of the biggest differences between the NH & NE and the Millennium - people don't die in the NH & NE. It says in Revelation "...there shall be no more death..."

The focus of the Old Testament is, of course, on the nation of Israel. The focus of the New Testament is on the church. That's why most of the verses on the coming kingdoms are in the Old Testament, not the New Testament.

But there are some in the NT, here's some I found:

Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 13:43, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Matthew 25 (Whole chapter)

Mark 11:10, “Blessed [be] the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.”

Luke 22:29-30, “And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Acts 1:6, “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”

I Cor. 15:24, “Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

II Tim. 2:12, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:”

II Tim. 4:1, “I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”

Rev. 5:10, “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Rev. 12:10, “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”

Rev. 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Rev. 20 (Whole chapter) Edited April 29, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Thanks' Rick for a brave attempt to answer my question.

No, brother, that's one of the biggest differences between the NH & NE and the Millennium - people don't die in the NH & NE. It says in Revelation "...there shall be no more death..."

Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
.....
20 ¶ There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah's vision of a perfect NH&NE includes death at a full age. It also includes accursed sinners. There are the same obvious problems for both disp & cov. I see such visions as an idealised state of the people of God, rather than a prophecy literal in every detail. The visions are clrified by NT teaching.


The focus of the Old Testament is, of course, on the nation of Israel. The focus of the New Testament is on the church. That's why most of the verses on the coming kingdoms are in the Old Testament, not the New Testament.

There are 13 reference that include both "Israel" & "nation." See Israel nation

The first of these sets the pattern: Exd 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. That promise Peter applies to the church: 1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

OTOH "people" AND "israel" occurs in 270 verses in the KJV, including 60 exact phrases shown first.

The first of these is Deu 21:8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed,.....

Should we therefore think of "Israel" primarily as the redeemed people of God, rather than a nation claiming Abrahamic descent?

The NT exact references are: Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

John's vision of Christ in glory sees every nation: Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Jesus warns: Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The promises to "Israel" are therefore to the redeemed people Israel, rather than the nation.

But there are some in the NT, here's some I found:

Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 13:43, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Matthew 25 (Whole chapter)

Mark 11:10, “Blessed [be] the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.”

Luke 22:29-30, “And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Acts 1:6, “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”

I Cor. 15:24, “Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

II Tim. 2:12, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:”

II Tim. 4:1, “I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”

Rev. 5:10, “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Rev. 12:10, “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”

Rev. 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Rev. 20 (Whole chapter)

None of these references teach a restored kingdom for Israel as a nation, nor a millennial kingdom on earth. I hope we agree that even now Jesus reigns on his heavenly throne. Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1 Cor. 15:24, “Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Does this teach a 1,000 year struggle to put down all rule and all authority and power? I thought the disp teaching was that Jesus millennial reign began with him doing just that. No. The end comes when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment. They will not be any rebels to put down. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Why do you only quote v. 43 & ignore the context?

Edited April 30, 2011 by Covenanter

[Covenanter]

The NT Scriptures you cite do not teach dispensationalism, you are using them to support the imposed disp hermeneutic.