Are there two wills in God?

[John81]

You're welcome. Notice that one of his extra "points" is what is called "double predestination".

Anime,
I have no intentions of reading John Piper's article. I did read down through it until I came upon the first statements of false doctrine(which wasn't very far) and I stopped right there and tried to point it out to you. But you won't have it. Why? Because you have what is called a "will"; in other words, you do what you WANT to do. God will let you do that. But God really is sovereign and He will judge you for the choices you make; good or bad.

Yes, I did notice that and I've read elsewhere that that's not what Calvin himself taught (I've not studied that out to see if Calvin did or didn't teach that).

Heartstrings, if you have a good answer for this I'd like to hear it...I'm wondering why John Piper seems to be so often quoted by a variety of pastors and other Christians, even those that aren't Calvinist, if he's so far off of some areas of doctrine? Is Piper only considered by some to be off doctrinally in the area of the Calvinism issue or is he off in other areas?

I've not yet encountered a book of his so I could read it for myself so I know exceedingly little about him.

[heartstrings]

Yes, I did notice that and I've read elsewhere that that's not what Calvin himself taught (I've not studied that out to see if Calvin did or didn't teach that).

Heartstrings, if you have a good answer for this I'd like to hear it...I'm wondering why John Piper seems to be so often quoted by a variety of pastors and other Christians, even those that aren't Calvinist, if he's so far off of some areas of doctrine? Is Piper only considered by some to be off doctrinally in the area of the Calvinism issue or is he off in other areas?

I've not yet encountered a book of his so I could read it for myself so I know exceedingly little about him.

Who said Calvin taught it? The discussion was about Piper. Whether "double predestination" was taught by "Calvin" or not, it's still heresy. I don't care how many quote Piper; even my own former pastor did. I trust and follow Jesus, not men.

[anime4christ]

@heartstrings: In that case, you should not have continued on arguing about Piper and Calvin and everything else. You pointed out what you didn't like in the article, which is fine, but until you have read the rest, you should not have gone further than that. This thread is about that article, period. It was not meant to be yet another Calvinism vs Whateverism debate.

@John: I would highly recommend reading Future Grace. I have 10 chapters or so left to read in it. It will give you a good insight into what John Piper believes.

[John81]

Who said Calvin taught it? The discussion was about Piper. Whether "double predestination" was taught by "Calvin" or not, it's still heresy. I don't care how many quote Piper; even my own former pastor did. I trust and follow Jesus, not men.

Sorry, but you seem to be jumping off the deep end here. Please join me where we can talk.

You didn't reply to what I asked. I simply asked you if you had any idea why some pastors and Christians, even who are not Calvinist, quote Piper frequently. I totally agree we are to follow Christ and not men and never suggested otherwise. I am simply wondering why so many seemingly solid pastors and lay folks quote Piper if he's not biblically sound. If you don't know, that's fine.

I was also wondering if anyone believed Piper to be off doctrinally on any other matter besides the Calvinist issue. If you don't know, that's fine.

My point about Calvin himself not teaching the other point was only that some today who call themselves, or are called by others, Calvinists, don't even agree with Calvin so aren't really "Calvinist". That has nothing to do with whether their teaching is valid or invalid.

The only reason I asked you is because you OBviously know more about Piper than I do but I certainly didn't mean to upset you.

[heartstrings]

Sorry, but you seem to be jumping off the deep end here. Please join me where we can talk.

You didn't reply to what I asked. I simply asked you if you had any idea why some pastors and Christians, even who are not Calvinist, quote Piper frequently. I totally agree we are to follow Christ and not men and never suggested otherwise. I am simply wondering why so many seemingly solid pastors and lay folks quote Piper if he's not biblically sound. If you don't know, that's fine.

I was also wondering if anyone believed Piper to be off doctrinally on any other matter besides the Calvinist issue. If you don't know, that's fine.

My point about Calvin himself not teaching the other point was only that some today who call themselves, or are called by others, Calvinists, don't even agree with Calvin so aren't really "Calvinist". That has nothing to do with whether their teaching is valid or invalid.

The only reason I asked you is because you OBviously know more about Piper than I do but I certainly didn't mean to upset you.

I do not know why so many want to quote Piper. Do you? Do you have the names of any of those "seemingly solid pastors"? Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss it with them to find the answer?

[heartstrings]

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Notice that it says "spirit". That is very important. For example; I don't beleive too many here would put much confidence in a false teacher like Benny Hinn would you? Yet Benny Hinn has the plan of salvation on his website. A person can say anything...like I love Jesus, Jesus is my all, but what does the spirit of this person really say? Under the feigned words and the facade, what is the individual really trying to push? John Piper claims with his WORDS that he loves God, that he is a "Christian Hedonist", yet he is denying love itself. He is denying God's great love for the whole world because he teaches that God only loves a few and that God predestined people for Hell. HIs website is even entitled "Desiring God" and that sounds really good, but anyone can SAY they desire God. Who are you really desiring? Do you desire the Jesus who selflessly gave Himself for all mankind? Or are you desiring a false savior who only died for a few. There's a big difference. Someone can use wonderful words and even pretend to lift up Jesus but what is their spirit really saying?

Edited September 21, 2010 by heartstrings

[John81]

I do not know why so many want to quote Piper. Do you? Do you have the names of any of those "seemingly solid pastors"? Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss it with them to find the answer?

I have no idea, which is why I asked you. Since you don't know either, if anyone does know, I'd like to know too.

[John81]

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Notice that it says "spirit". That is very important. For example; I don't beleive too many here would put much confidence in a false teacher like Benny Hinn would you? Yet Benny Hinn has the plan of salvation on his website. A person can say anything...like I love Jesus, Jesus is my all, but what does the spirit of this person really say? Under the feigned words and the facade, what is the individual really trying to push? John Piper claims with his WORDS that he loves God, that he is a "Christian Hedonist", yet he is denying love itself. He is denying God's great love for the whole world because he teaches that God only loves a few and that God predestined people for Hell. HIs website is even entitled "Desiring God" and that sounds really good, but anyone can SAY they desire God. Who are you really desiring? Do you desire the Jesus who gave sellessly gave Himself for all mankind? Or are you desiring a false savior who only died for a few. There's a big difference. Someone can use wonderful words and even pretend to lift up Jesus but what is their spirit really saying?

From what you say here, it seems more like Piper is a hyper-Calvinist rather than a traditional Calvinist such as Spurgeon.

[anime4christ]

All Calvinists believe that God did already choose who to save and by virtue of that chose who not to save. Infralapsarians believe He chose who not to save passively and supralapsarians believe He chose actively. I don't get into the whole lapsarian debate, but I do believe in double predestination, because there is no other way for predestination to work logically. What heartstrings is saying is that all Calvinists (and possibly Lutherans, which believe in a modified form of monergism) are all hell-bound heretics, including Piper, Spurgeon, and myself.

John, like I said in an earlier post, and you prOBably missed it, check out Piper's book, Future Grace if you really want to get to know what he believes. People say many things about him. Some say he's a hyper-Calvinist, some say he's really an Arminian, but he OBviously can't be both. People say a lot, but not everything is true. Find out for yourself what he really has to say and then decide.

[anime4christ]

Also, heartstrings keeps ignoring the fact that this thread is not a debate on Calvinism vs Arminianism. It's a discussion about the article posted in the original post. So, please refrain from debating soteriology in this thread and please stop with the "false god of Calvinism" thing already.

[John81]

I do believe it's actually a dangerous thing to proclaim that all Calvinists are serving a false god. While don't know a lot of Calvinists, those I do know meet all the biblical qualifications and "tests" for being born again Christians. If they are born again in Christ that means the non-Calvinists God is the same as their God. To proclaim otherwise, if they be in Christ, is an attack upon God, not them.

[John81]

John, like I said in an earlier post, and you prOBably missed it, check out Piper's book, Future Grace if you really want to get to know what he believes. People say many things about him. Some say he's a hyper-Calvinist, some say he's really an Arminian, but he OBviously can't be both. People say a lot, but not everything is true. Find out for yourself what he really has to say and then decide.

If I can get a copy of that book I'll read it. I do prefer to know where a person stands by their own words whether I find I agree with them or disagree.

[heartstrings]

Also, heartstrings keeps ignoring the fact that this thread is not a debate on Calvinism vs Arminianism. It's a discussion about the article posted in the original post. So, please refrain from debating soteriology in this thread and please stop with the "false god of Calvinism" thing already.

You're wrong. This thread is not a debate on "Calvinism vs Arminianism". Calvinism and Arminainism are both vs the Bible. The originator of this thread wants to promote calvinistic doctrine and that's what this thread is about. This subject of "Two wills in God", and it's author, is about promoting calvinistic doctrine.

[anime4christ]

You're wrong. This thread is not a debate on "Calvinism vs Arminianism". Calvinism and Arminainism are both vs the Bible. The originator of this thread wants to promote calvinistic doctrine and that's what this thread is about. This subject of "Two wills in God", and it's author, is about promoting calvinistic doctrine.

I'm not about promoting Calvinism here. The reason I posted this thread is to answer a question that was asked of me a lot on this forum. Namely, how do the verses which talk about God's will for all to be saved fit with my understanding of the verses which talk about God's will being done no matter what. I posted this to settle this question, that's all. Anyways, I think that monergists and synergists can be friends though they disagree on soteriology, so can we stop the "false god" thing please?

[heartstrings]

I'm not about promoting Calvinism here. The reason I posted this thread is to answer a question that was asked of me a lot on this forum. Namely, how do the verses which talk about God's will for all to be saved fit with my understanding of the verses which talk about God's will being done no matter what. I posted this to settle this question, that's all. Anyways, I think that monergists and synergists can be friends though they disagree on soteriology, so can we stop the "false god" thing please?

What is a monergist? Or a synergist? I found these definitions on a website.........

Monergist
"In theol., The doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration."

True; the Holy Spirit but also the Word of God are the only "efficient agents" in regeneration. True; the human will possesses no "inclination to holiness" until regenerated. True' the human will cannot "cooperate in regeneration". However; the human will can OBey God and repent.

The Century Dictionary defines synergism as

"...the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives."

Also: A Belief That Faith Arises Out of An Inherent Capacity of the Natural Man.

Ok, I disagree with this too because the Bible says that God has given to every man the measure of faith. We all have faith in someone or something. Just like God gave you breath and a heartbeat, He also gave you the ability to beleive; He gave you the ability to have "faith". Man does not produce his own faith.; he simply exercises the faith and his ability to choose, given to all men by God. Man also does not have an "inclination toward holiness". Synergism and Monergism, as defined above, are false. I reject them both.

This is the correct Bible concept of how man's will works...
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The "life" btw, is Jesus Christ.
It's really quite simple. God sets before you life and death, blessing or cursing, Heaven or a horrible torment in Hell. Which one do you want? Do you have a FEAR of Almighty God or not? Fear of God is the beginning, my friend. Man's "will" is not "holy" or meritorious in any way. To put it bluntly, God says "choose Jesus and I will bless you" "Choose self and I will kill you". Is it an "inclination toward holiness" that would make an individual fall down like a dog before a thrice Holy God and choose life? No sir, I would say that it's an entirely SELFISH act to do so. Does this help explain the role of man's will better for you?

Ok, one of God's wills, is that none should perish and that all should come to repentence (2 Peter 3:9). Do you fear Him enough to OBey His Holy demand, or will you choose to ignore and reject Him? This will, is not going to be realized and God is not going to get what He wants.

Another of God's wills is that His Word shall not "return unto Him void". Many shall be saved, His Kingdom shall be established, and there shall be peace and joy in the Holy Ghost for ever and ever. Edited September 29, 2010 by heartstrings