Are there two wills in God?

[anime4christ]

None of those explanations do away with two wills being in play here. The crucifixion of Jesus was God's will and murder is against God's will.

[heartstrings]

None of those explanations do away with two wills being in play here. The crucifixion of Jesus was God's will and murder is against God's will.

No sir.....
God is a giver...God is love, my friend.
I gave you the verse above. It says he "laid down" His life. It says "No man taketh it". He is the one who raised Lazarus and the centurion's daughter from the dead and He was in full control of the situation. They could have cut off his head and he wouldn't have died until he was good and ready. It was God's will to GIVE...He freely gave his life. God is selfless.
That is part of his very nature. Man is a taker...God is a giver. Death and destruction is nto God's will...Giving himself for us is. Edited September 2, 2010 by heartstrings

[John81]

No sir.....
God is a giver...God is love, my friend.
I gave you the verse above. It says he "laid down" His life. It says "No man taketh it". He is the one who raised Lazarus and the centurion's daughter from the dead and He was in full control of the situation. They could have cut off his head and he wouldn't have died until he was good and ready. It was God's will to GIVE...He freely gave his life. God is selfless.
That is part of his very nature. Man is a taker...God is a giver. Death and destruction is nto God's will...Giving himself for us is.

I'm not sure how this relates.

Of course Christ laid down His own life by allowing Judas, Pilate, the Roman soldiers and such to bring about His crucifiction, but had Christ not allowed this prophecy regarding this would not have been fulfilled.

Christ knew Judas Iscariot was the one prophecy spoke of as the one who would betray Him.

God's plan, as revealed in prophecy in the Old Testament, was that Christ would be betrayed and this betrayal would lead to Christ being crucified. This would serve as the perfect sacrifice...

Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I need to wait until I have time to read that article. I'm not sure I understand for sure the point either of you two are trying to make but this reply doesn't seem to fit with regards to what it appears the discussion is about.

Okay, my brain is starting to itch so I'm moving on...

[heartstrings]

I'm not sure how this relates.

Of course Christ laid down His own life by allowing Judas, Pilate, the Roman soldiers and such to bring about His crucifiction, but had Christ not allowed this prophecy regarding this would not have been fulfilled.

Christ knew Judas Iscariot was the one prophecy spoke of as the one who would betray Him.

God's plan, as revealed in prophecy in the Old Testament, was that Christ would be betrayed and this betrayal would lead to Christ being crucified. This would serve as the perfect sacrifice...

Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I need to wait until I have time to read that article. I'm not sure I understand for sure the point either of you two are trying to make but this reply doesn't seem to fit with regards to what it appears the discussion is about.

Okay, my brain is starting to itch so I'm moving on...

The point is, God did not predetermine Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus. God simply knew it would happen and He told us in his word it would happen. Not only that, but when Jesus chose Judas to be a dsciple He knew exactly what Judas was going to do. Judas did what he wanted to do, sir. That is what we can't wrap our minds around. Edited September 2, 2010 by heartstrings

[John81]

The point is, God did not predetermine Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus. God simply knew it would happen and He told us in his word it would happen. Not only that, but when Jesus chose Judas to be a dsciple He knew exactly what Judas was going to do. Judas did what he wanted to do, sir. That is what we can't wrap our minds around.

Okay, now that's plain to understand. I know what you are saying even though I don't know that I agree with the last sentence. Thanks for the clear explanation!

[heartstrings]

Okay, now that's plain to understand. I know what you are saying even though I don't know that I agree with the last sentence. Thanks for the clear explanation!

The last sentence is...

That is what we can't wrap our minds around.

What about the last sentence do you not agree with? Edited September 3, 2010 by heartstrings

[anime4christ]

Methinks we're just going in circles... the Bible is clear however, that when God's will is talked about, it's not always talking about the same thing, you just won't admit it, but I think others reading here can see my point clearly. I respect you and all, heartstrings, but sometimes you just frustrate me so much because you are so bent on anti-Calvinism that you will not agree on anything -- though it might not necessarily be a part of Calvinism -- if it can be used to support Calvinism, even if it's Biblical. I'm not asking you to agree with me on Calvinism, but you can admit some things I say are Biblical. Or are all monergists 100% wrong on absolutely everything by virtue of being a monergist?

Another example of how there are two wills in God is verses like Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" and Romans 9:19: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

Those verses speak of a will that will never be thwarted. A will that shall be done unconditionally. But God's will is rejected and thwarted all the time by humans. So, the question is: are these verses lying (aka have a hidden meaning that only non-Calvinists truly understand because Calvinists are just plain stupid for taking scripture at face value. //end sarcasm) or are they talking about a different will which will not be thwarted?

[John81]

The last sentence is...
What about the last sentence do you not agree with?

I don't know that I agree we can't wrap our minds around these things.

[heartstrings]

I don't know that I agree we can't wrap our minds around these things.

That is very good....because I don't think I agree with it entirely either.
But evidently, some of us are having trouble with them.
I believe God wants us to understand some of these things, and I beleive He will reveal them to anyone who will ask in faith, nothing wavering.

[heartstrings]

Methinks we're just going in circles... the Bible is clear however, that when God's will is talked about, it's not always talking about the same thing, you just won't admit it, but I think others reading here can see my point clearly. I respect you and all, heartstrings, but sometimes you just frustrate me so much because you are so bent on anti-Calvinism that you will not agree on anything -- though it might not necessarily be a part of Calvinism -- if it can be used to support Calvinism, even if it's Biblical. I'm not asking you to agree with me on Calvinism, but you can admit some things I say are Biblical. Or are all monergists 100% wrong on absolutely everything by virtue of being a monergist?

Another example of how there are two wills in God is verses like Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" and Romans 9:19: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

Those verses speak of a will that will never be thwarted. A will that shall be done unconditionally. But God's will is rejected and thwarted all the time by humans. So, the question is: are these verses lying (aka have a hidden meaning that only non-Calvinists truly understand because Calvinists are just plain stupid for taking scripture at face value. //end sarcasm) or are they talking about a different will which will not be thwarted?

Matthew 8:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Read the above bverses carefully...then read them again....
God says offenses are going to happen....
God warns potential offenders....
God gives the remedy.....

Judas Iscariot chose not to heed the warning, sir.
God's will is disOBeyed every day.
"will" means what we call "want". God wants us all to OBey Him. But we all do what we "want" to do. Edited September 3, 2010 by heartstrings

[anime4christ]

Matthew 8:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Read the above bverses carefully...then read them again....
God says offenses are going to happen....
God warns potential offenders....
God gives the remedy.....

Judas Iscariot chose not to heed the warning, sir.
God's will is disOBeyed every day.
"will" means what we call "want". God wants us all to OBey Him. But we all do what we "want" to do.

Once again, you completely ignored the point I was making. Anyway, since when do we do what we want? How many times have you wanted to do something and say even circumstances restrained you? Is not God sovereign over those circumstances? So how can you say that you can always do what you want and God never makes anyone do something against their will? There are so many times when we can't do what we want. The way you view the world, it is totally run by autonomous human beings, and God is just hoping someone will pay attention to Him. That is not the picture the Bible paints however. I won't go into explaining it again though because people seem to have a prOBlem with it here though.

[heartstrings]

Once again, you completely ignored the point I was making. Anyway, since when do we do what we want? How many times have you wanted to do something and say even circumstances restrained you? Is not God sovereign over those circumstances? So how can you say that you can always do what you want and God never makes anyone do something against their will? There are so many times when we can't do what we want. The way you view the world, it is totally run by autonomous human beings, and God is just hoping someone will pay attention to Him. That is not the picture the Bible paints however. I won't go into explaining it again though because people seem to have a prOBlem with it here though.

That is not true...
I have tried to explain to you over and over that God is in control.

[anime4christ]

That is not true...
I have tried to explain to you over and over that God is in control.

Can anybody else read the whole thread and attest to this? I don't see it for some reason...

[John81]

For those interested, the Sword of the Lord is running a series of articles, beginning with the current issue (September 3, 2010) entitled "The Case Against Calvinism!" by Dr. Shelton Smith.

I've read the fist installment and it would be good for Calvinists and anti-Calvinists to read. Much of the article is put together well but one section has several poor, unneeded and unhelpful sentences.

There are a couple points in the article which seems to somewhat contradict one another. I think this is because Dr. Smith uses material from Dr. John R. Rice and Dr. Curtis Hutson and these two didn't approach the topic from the same basis.

In any event, I'm looking forward to how this series develops and stands as a whole.

[anime4christ]

For those interested, the Sword of the Lord is running a series of articles, beginning with the current issue (September 3, 2010) entitled "The Case Against Calvinism!" by Dr. Shelton Smith.

I've read the fist installment and it would be good for Calvinists and anti-Calvinists to read. Much of the article is put together well but one section has several poor, unneeded and unhelpful sentences.

There are a couple points in the article which seems to somewhat contradict one another. I think this is because Dr. Smith uses material from Dr. John R. Rice and Dr. Curtis Hutson and these two didn't approach the topic from the same basis.

In any event, I'm looking forward to how this series develops and stands as a whole.

Are these articles online somewhere? Really, I don't care what Calvin said or what Arminius said or whatever. I only care about the truth, and I will consider any valid challenge to my faith. I am not afraid of it being tested, so if someone recommends I read something that they believe makes a good argument for my faith or against my faith, I will gladly do so when I have the time. Unfortunately, from my experience, anti-Calvinists will not do so. It's as if they are afraid to read what the opposing view puts forth. I don't understand. Why? And should they ever read it, they just get very angry and defensive, but never address the point that the article put forth brings up. That only convinces me further that my position is prOBably the correct one. The attitude says more than the arguments do.