A friend has turned "trans" :(

[R Sauter]

3 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

Yea it should be the perseverance of God..not the saints..

But the verse 'he who endureth to the will be saved' is not about salvation but the other kind of deliverance during end times...from trials and tribulations. 

I wasn't saying CRU was Calvinist ..but still loads works into salvation by having a believer 'commit their life to Christ'

What happens when their commitment fails?  Never saved to begin with?

No way. Jesus saves them..not their own commitment. 

 

 

Someone implied it and I guess this is where Calvinism came into the discussion. If you know anything at all about Campus Crusade (CRU - whatever this means), you understand it is anything but Calvinist. LOL

I agree that our salvation is not dependent upon whether we "Endure to the end." This is what all the "Jesus Only Apostolic" types teach and believe - that you can "lose your salvation" pretty much every time you sin and for ridiculous things like leaving your top collar button unbuttoned or watching a television show. Catholics teach pretty much the same thing that they must maintain a "State of Grace" in order to avoid any time in purgatory. Such positions are very much unscriptural.

Yes, Mt 10:22 is certainly talking about tribulation and persecution but how do we make this just about end times? This passage was very much a reality for early Christians who were fed to the lions ans suffered other horrible deaths because they would not renounce their faith in Christ! Such goes on today in Communistic and Islamic countries. Are we so arrogant to think such may not take place here in the U.S before our Lord's return?

We therefore have to ask the question "Saved from what?" do we not? Are they going to be saved or delivered from being tortured or killed? I think the answer to this is quite obvious! I believe it has everything to do with being "Faithful unto Death" and let's get perfectly real here! Only those who possess a genuine saving faith in Christ would have such an ability because they are supernaturally empowered by God to do so! For the most part, all one has to do is renounce their faith and they would walk away a free man! If you are truly in Christ, such a thought would never enter your mind!

I am not sure what you are getting at regarding "when your commitment fails." It seems you are answering your own question with the next line you wrote? Yes, it is Christ who keeps us and we are secure in him, not our "commitment" whatever this may be.

Edited February 21 by R Sauter

[R Sauter]

11 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I was certainly hoping that it was coming across the wrong way. You and I have discussed this several times over the years. Still, after being attacked by one from the Calvinistic persuasion this past week, and my having to block him when I never thought I would have to, I am a little more ready to go on the defense of those who hold to free will. 

When it comes to the defense of Biblical salvation, I don't believe anyone would say to be soft on the issue.

I would also defend the "free will" position against those who misrepresent it. Far too many Calvinists automatically categorize anyone who is not of the Calvinist persuasion to be "Semi-Pelagian" and I have written about this ad-nauseum during my studies in seminary (that happens to be non-Calvinistic).

We most definitely have a "free will" but left to our own free will, we will always choose darkness rather than light and will always run from God, never towards him! Both Calvinists and Classic Arminians agree on this as do I.

[MikeWatson1]

On 2/22/2024 at 10:36 AM, R Sauter said:

Someone implied it and I guess this is where Calvinism came into the discussion. If you know anything at all about Campus Crusade (CRU - whatever this means), you understand it is anything but Calvinist. LOL

I agree that our salvation is not dependent upon whether we "Endure to the end." This is what all the "Jesus Only Apostolic" types teach and believe - that you can "lose your salvation" pretty much every time you sin and for ridiculous things like leaving your top collar button unbuttoned or watching a television show. Catholics teach pretty much the same thing that they must maintain a "State of Grace" in order to avoid any time in purgatory. Such positions are very much unscriptural.

Yes, Mt 10:22 is certainly talking about tribulation and persecution but how do we make this just about end times? This passage was very much a reality for early Christians who were fed to the lions ans suffered other horrible deaths because they would not renounce their faith in Christ! Such goes on today in Communistic and Islamic countries. Are we so arrogant to think such may not take place here in the U.S before our Lord's return?

We therefore have to ask the question "Saved from what?" do we not? Are they going to be saved or delivered from being tortured or killed? I think the answer to this is quite obvious! I believe it has everything to do with being "Faithful unto Death" and let's get perfectly real here! Only those who possess a genuine saving faith in Christ would have such an ability because they are supernaturally empowered by God to do so! For the most part, all one has to do is renounce their faith and they would walk away a free man! If you are truly in Christ, such a thought would never enter your mind!

I am not sure what you are getting at regarding "when your commitment fails." It seems you are answering your own question with the next line you wrote? Yes, it is Christ who keeps us and we are secure in him, not our "commitment" whatever this may be.

I was meaning..  in the salvation prayer for the Knowing God Personally booklet.. it has 'now I turn from my sins' and/or 'commit my life to Christ '.

Obviously there is nothing wrong with these intentions..but eternal salvation comes from Jesus ..not self commitment or reliance on self turning from sins.  

I think people still get saved,  after reading the booklet because it has ..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.  But it's got a mixture in their that put the wrong way can lead people to false conversion. 

Anyway,  the main thing is apparently Campus Crusade is now getting a bit today's culture friendly. 

[R Sauter]

15 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

I was meaning..  in the salvation prayer for the Knowing God Personally booklet.. it has 'now I turn from my sins' and/or 'commit my life to Christ '.

Obviously there is nothing wrong with these intentions..but eternal salvation comes from Jesus ..not self commitment or reliance on self turning from sins.  

I think people still get saved,  after reading the booklet because it has ..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.  But it's got a mixture in their that put the wrong way can lead people to false conversion. 

Anyway,  the main thing is apparently Campus Crusade is now getting a bit today's culture friendly. 

Thanks for the clarification and I can fully appreciate this. We get into a lot of semantics over whether repentance is necessary for salvation but the principle error here is our focus upon "What a man must do" in order to be saved. The correct answer here is that there is nothing that a man can do because he is dead and is incapable of being anything other than dead! God chooses the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and faith comes by hearing of the word of God.

Therefore, repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin and are evidence of, not conditions for our salvation!

On this note, I would say that the core of theologial liberalism and apostacy stems from trying to be "Nicer than Jesus" and either outright deny or downplay the fundamental doctrine of Man's Total Depravity and a refusal to confront our world and warn of God's imminent judgment for sin! Campus Crusade is the epitome of the "easy believism" which has made the cross of Christ of none effect and such ministries are always the first to slide into theological apostacy!

Because the doctrine of total depravity is cast aside, liberal theologians can therefore make the case that "God made me this way" and that we need to just "Be what God made us to be!" If I can get back on track with my seminary degree, this will be the basis for my Master's Thesis and I feel more and more compelled that such is a necessary thing to do!

[MikeWatson1]

13 hours ago, R Sauter said:

Thanks for the clarification and I can fully appreciate this. We get into a lot of semantics over whether repentance is necessary for salvation but the principle error here is our focus upon "What a man must do" in order to be saved. The correct answer here is that there is nothing that a man can do because he is dead and is incapable of being anything other than dead! God chooses the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and faith comes by hearing of the word of God.

Therefore, repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin and are evidence of, not conditions for our salvation!

On this note, I would say that the core of theologial liberalism and apostacy stems from trying to be "Nicer than Jesus" and either outright deny or downplay the fundamental doctrine of Man's Total Depravity and a refusal to confront our world and warn of God's imminent judgment for sin! Campus Crusade is the epitome of the "easy believism" which has made the cross of Christ of none effect and such ministries are always the first to slide into theological apostacy!

Because the doctrine of total depravity is cast aside, liberal theologians can therefore make the case that "God made me this way" and that we need to just "Be what God made us to be!" If I can get back on track with my seminary degree, this will be the basis for my Master's Thesis and I feel more and more compelled that such is a necessary thing to do!

Well it is 'easy to believe ' in Jesus. But it's not just 'repeat a prayer after me' ..but under conviction,  from the heart calling for salvation.

Romans 10:9-10. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, Ephesians 2:8-9.

I think where Campus Crusade goes wrong is the initial leaders who were sound in tge faith are now long passed. Also they become an entity in themselves when in the past they were mainly focused on linking people to churches rather than being a church themselves. 

[Jerry]

On 2/23/2024 at 10:01 AM, R Sauter said:

Therefore, repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin and are evidence of, not conditions for our salvation!

Hm, the Bible teaches both sides of this coin are essential for salvation - not something that comes later. Though, yes, true Christianity involves a lifetime of repentance, there are many passages that teach we turn from our sins (in our hearts, which is what repentance is) to Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

[MikeWatson1]

17 hours ago, Jerry said:

Hm, the Bible teaches both sides of this coin are essential for salvation - not something that comes later. Though, yes, true Christianity involves a lifetime of repentance, there are many passages that teach we turn from our sins (in our hearts, which is what repentance is) to Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Repent..change of mind, heart..from unbelief to belief.

[Jerry]

No, repentance is a change of mind about our sin. It is turning in our hearts FROM those sins (accepting that they are against God and condemn us), and faith is turning TO the Lord for salvation (believing who Jesus is, trusting in His finished work of redemption and receiving His righteousness).

[Jerry]

Repentance regarding man is usually dealing with the sin they are guilty of or of some behaviour towards others (not essential to this post but can explain and give an example of what I am referring to here, if needed).

Luke 13:2-5
And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
 

Repentance doesn’t mean believe.

Luke 17:3-4
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
 

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
 

Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
 

It does not say, repent of his unbelief, but of his wickedness.

[MikeWatson1]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:52 AM, Jerry said:

No, repentance is a change of mind about our sin. It is turning in our hearts FROM those sins (accepting that they are against God and condemn us), and faith is turning TO the Lord for salvation (believing who Jesus is, trusting in His finished work of redemption and receiving His righteousness).

I agree with this. But not if turning from sins means reducing sin in your life and then you can get saved. This is what I mean by unbelief to belief.  Not a behavioral thing, but trusting in the finished work of the cross as you say.  We are probably saying the same thing in different terms

[Jerry]

Repentance is not cleaning up your life - but it is changing your mind about your sin  in a way that means you no longer desire it the same way you did before. Many of the old time fundamentalists and evangelists had a clear understanding of it and preached it. Nowadays, many believe it doesn’t matter or they redefine it - yet Jesus said without turning in your heart from your sin there is no salvation.

If you are an idolator (for example), but you don’t change your mind (ie. repent) of that specific sin and turn from it, then you are not truly turning to the true God, are you? It is letting the sin go so you can receive God’s gift of eternal life. It is acknowledging the Lordship of Christ in your life so you no longer live like you did when you were lost, realizing His Word is the guide for your life and God has the authority to tell you what to do.

Some have Biblically defined repentance as “a change of mind resulting in a change of conduct” (as that is how it is always shown in the Bible). It is not the change of conduct, but the mindset that leads to it, and leads to true salvation (ie. being regenerated by the Holy Spirit and being changed forever).

Edited March 8 by Jerry
Punctuation