Joe Chandler

For that matter what does 'saved' mean here? Salvation as in being born again or saved as in delivered from physical harm?

Yup. My views are anathema to almost all my friends. I believed the pre-trib view for 20 + years.

I am 65 years old and my mind is slipping. Rest always helps me. ?

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't try so hard to be cute and just state my view. I figured my topic would generate interest.

I don't see a pre-trib rapture. I have read Dwight Pentecost's Thing to Come and many other authors, but I still don't see it. It bothers me a great deal that my end times views seem to be only common with Calvinists.

Sorry Tony, I thought my point was obvious. We have a duty to judge and the "Don't judge me" crowd is wrong.

I am not a Calvinist nor Reformed. I presented scripture and very little commentary. I am also not a Replacement Theology proponent and I do not follow Steven Anderson.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. When does this resurrection occur? Look at vs 24. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Compare this passage to Revelation 10:7 Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. What about the description of the event? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. No secret coming here.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: ... This establishes the intended audience. Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. This establishes that His coming is not a secret event. Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:1-5 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? Philippians 1:9-11 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

My mother had dementia. My wife and I cared for her at home until she passed. You cannot argue with folks with dementia. You cannot reason with such folks either. So I had to lie to her. I hated it, but it was the only way besides physical coercion to get her to go to her room at night. I feel no guilt about this, but I did at first. As Jerry pointed out, the intent of lying is important. Here is an example I didn't see cited. 1 Kings 22:20-24 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Ahhhh. Thank God, I thought I was going crazy.

1 Corinthians 3:1-5 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? It appears that the brethren can be carnal.

The first thing to go is the manuscript, then the music, then the message. Why are you still there?

That explains all the metaphor and allegory in your posts. So are you preterist or historist?

Do Baptists believe in the 10 commandments? We do not observe the dietary law, because the council in Jerusalem said the Gentile believers were exempt. Nobody can observe the ceremonial law, because the temple has been destroyed. Now we come to the moral law. So ask yourself a common sense question. Should I steal? Should I murder my neighbor? Should I lie against my neighbor? No. Why not? The Bible says that these are sins. The law defines sin. Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Here is an excerpt from a group of Baptist in England in 1770: Article II. On the Nature and Perpetual Obligation of the Moral Law. We believe, that the moral law not only extends to the outward actions of the life, but to all the powers and faculties of the mind, to every desire, temper and thought; that it demands the entire devotion of all the powers and faculties of both body and soul to God: or, in our Lord's words, to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength:-that this law is of perpetual duration and obligation, to all men, at all times, and in all places or parts of the world. And, we suppose that this law was obligatory to Adam in his perfect state-was more clearly reveled in the ten commandments-and more fully explained in many other parts of the bible. Do Baptists believe in the 10 Commandments? Yes.

So how do you define sin without the law? Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I can't find signature under Account Settings. I also can't find mustard in my refrigerator, so ...

The English language has rules; they are called grammar. Is it important for understanding your Bible? Let me start with a question as an example. Do you like reading about the apostle Peter as much as me? No wait. Do you like reading about the apostle Peter as much as I? Which is correct? The answer is "I" not "me". How to tell. Supply the understood verb, in this case 'do', to the sentence and the answer becomes clear. Do you like reading about the apostle Peter as much as me do? Or do you like reading about the apostle Peter as much as I do? "Me do" just sounds stupid. I believe it is important to know what a verse says before you explain what it means. I am hoping for some converts here. John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. What did Jesus ask Peter? "lovest thou me more than these? I have heard some wild answers to this in the past. Examples: Jesus is referring to the other disciples. Does Peter love Him more than them. Jesus was referring to the fish. Jesus was referring to fishing. All these guesses are based on a wrong presupposition that some beloved minister proposed, namely that Paul said it is unwise to compare ourselves among ourselves, therefore Jesus could not have asked Peter if he loved Him more than the other disciples loved Him. The problem is that that is exactly what Jesus asked Peter. Let's apply the same grammar rule we applied before. "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these (do)? I have more to say on this, but I'll wait to gauge interest first. I hate long posts. ?

God is eternal and His salvation is eternal. When you called on Him for salvation, He saw your entire life and forgave you completely. His forgives your past present and future sins. He forgives your sins, but just as importantly He forgives you for being a sinner.

If Greek and Hebrew were your native tongues. You would have to be comfortable and familiar with idiom and syntax. I tried to engage a German waitress once. So I typed into a translator app, "I have learned a few German phrases to make you feel at home". The phrase "feel at home" translated to "feel like a house". Literal, yes. Correct, no.

Fleeing from false doctrine, as we should, leads us to do illogical things. Christian is a perfectly good term for what I am. I don't care if others use it incorrectly. I am not afraid of God's sovereign will, because the Bible supports it. I also don't shy from man's free will, because the Bible supports that. Be prepared to refute the incorrect use of words and concepts in the Bible, don't run from the truth. That is my position. I am a Christian.

I went to a Bible college that used local pastors to preach in chapel. Some were King James men others were not and some claimed to be, but were not KJV. They used expressions such as, "a better rendering here would be ..." or "another version puts it this way..." A better rendering of what? I was confused. Finally a pastor came in and said, "Things that are different are not the same". Boom, it clicked with me. Then the first pastor I worked for asked me my view on Bible versions. Then he said, "This is the issue that will split our fellowship. (The Baptist Bible Fellowship) The gave me books to study. I read Ruckman, and Fuller and a few others. Since then I have read a lot about the King James translators and their unmatched methods and scholarship. I cannot understand how smart people justify using other versions.

I once tried to date all the northern kingdom kings and the southern kingdom kings. Simple, right? I had a Bible and a spreadsheet, no problem. I soon learned that some kings had more than one name and that Kings and Chronicles gave different ages to a king. Some kings are dated according to their anointing and some to their seating. David was anointed three times! Some kings co-reigned with their fathers and the word "Son" can apply to a grandson, or a distant progeny. Eg: Matthew 1:1 "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." I also found that scholars had been arguing these very things. After doing a lot of research I found solutions to every discrepancy. Other translations "fixed" the problems by making Chronicles and Kings agree. That was the exact wrong thing to do. Thanks to David Cloud's excellent book Things hard to be Understood the explanation was make clear to me and my faith in the KJV strengthened. Study your Bible, ask God to show you the truth, and wait for the answer. Forums are nice, but they cannot replace real study.