The Repentance Issue::: revisited

[Guest Guest]

You are inconsistent and are denying God's definition of the very Word itself. I am not going to go back and quote you and others; the post are there. But this last instance you cannot possibly contend that when God "repented" that HE TURNED FROM SINNING.
CORRECT, SETH?

No, I am not being inconsistent here, the problem is that you are taking one meaning of the term "repent" and attributing it to every case where the word is used. I never said that the only use of the word repent is in relation to sin. Repentance is a change in heart. Limiting repentance to just a simple change of "mind" is a very narrow and incomplete definition of the word.


Here is Websters Definition.

repent:
intransitive verb
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for


Note that he does mention "to change one's mind" as you define repentance but that is only part of it. He also defines it as meaning "to feel regret or contrition"(the case in the passages about God repenting) and "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life". Obviously we can't "amend our lives" on our own but when we "turn from sin" we "turn to God" and thus are saved by his grace and posses the ability to "amend our lives" through him.

If we now must define the "turn" in "turn from sin" I think this websters definition does just fine:

"to set in another especially contrary direction"

Instead of the heart of man being turned toward and desiring sin as it is in an unrepentant state, it turns toward God and desires him instead.

"Luke 24:45-47 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

"2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."


Here is Strongs definition of "repentance" in these passages:

1.
metavnoia metanoia, met-an'-oy-ah; from 3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance.

Of course, scripture teaches that even the ability to repent is a gift of God.

[Carrierwave~]

Luk 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

No, it doesn't say that He would spare the city. But that was His desire, and It was God who initiated the process. God sent Jonah to warn them, Jonah tried to run, then it was God who took measures to make sure Jonah complied. Therefore, God had already proved that he did not want to destroy them. God's desire all along, was for Nineveh to be saved. I beleive God saw their need and had compassion on them. Bit It was up to them. They were convicted. And I believe they repented and believed at the same time.
Just like the Ninevites were, we are condemned already. They were headed for certain destruction, we are headed for destruction. Condemned already.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Many people say they "believe" there is a Jesus. But they have not invited Him into their heart.
It's basicly turning to Jesus from your wicked self. It's not an "act" or "work", it's simple faith. Many refuse to do that. But when you do that; when you realize that you are a wicked condemned sinner, and you realize that Jesus is real and He loves you so much and you trust Jesus to save you from your sin, Jesus will come into your heart. You are then instantly indwelled with the Holy Ghost; A new creature. But a lost man, who says "no" to that, knows that he will have to give up his sin. Yes we are all sinners, but unlike a lost man who can go on in sin without any chastisement, the sanctification process begins in a saved person and he will continue to repent of wrong things he does. God begins conforming him to the image of Christ. I wish I could explain it better, but I don't understand it all myself. All I know is what happened to me.

Heartstrings,

Thanks for your great understanding of GRACE SALVATION alone. Thanks for pointing out that God DID want to spare the Ninevites. It makes sense, why would God WARN them if He did not care! "His mercy endureth forever". It is also clear that God looks at "turning from sin" as WORKS according to Jonah 3:10. (NO WORKS ALLOWED IN GOD"S PLAN OF GRACE SALVATION.) This event in the Old Testament is probably one of the best illustrations of GRACE SALVATION in the Bible. God forgave them because of their FAITH and He spared their city because as believers they cried unto God and "sanctified" themselves from their wickedness.

II Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

[Guest Guest]

Heartstrings,

Thanks for your great understanding of GRACE SALVATION alone. Thanks for pointing out that God DID want to spare the Ninevites. It makes sense, why would God WARN them if He did not care! "His mercy endureth forever". It is also clear that God looks at "turning from sin" as WORKS according to Jonah 3:10. (NO WORKS ALLOWED IN GOD"S PLAN OF GRACE SALVATION.) This event in the Old Testament is probably one of the best illustrations of GRACE SALVATION in the Bible. God forgave them because of their FAITH and He spared their city because as believers they cried unto God and "sanctified" themselves from their wickedness.

II Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Your constant accusations that repentance = works gets a little old. No one here is teaching works salvation, you are merely inaccurately proclaiming we are. If "repentance" is a "work" so is "belief". :roll

[Carrierwave~]

The doctrine you may want to refresh is the one surrounding your statement..."Notice, we have God "repenting". He "reversed a decision He had previously made". God did not "turn from sin". HE "changed His Mind"."

In particular... (HE "changed His Mind".")

I know He didn't change His mind about my salvation.

Note the instances where God "reversed a previous decision". It is always when MAN decides to "change his mind" and believe GOD! What an awesome truth!

[Carrierwave~]

No, I am not being inconsistent here, the problem is that you are taking one meaning of the term "repent" and attributing it to every case where the word is used. I never said that the only use of the word repent is in relation to sin. Repentance is a change in heart. Limiting repentance to just a simple change of "mind" is a very narrow and incomplete definition of the word.


Here is Websters Definition.

repent:
intransitive verb
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for


Note that he does mention "to change one's mind" as you define repentance but that is only part of it. He also defines it as meaning "to feel regret or contrition"(the case in the passages about God repenting) and "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life". Obviously we can't "amend our lives" on our own but when we "turn from sin" we "turn to God" and thus are saved by his grace and posses the ability to "amend our lives" through him.

If we now must define the "turn" in "turn from sin" I think this websters definition does just fine:

"to set in another especially contrary direction"

Instead of the heart of man being turned toward and desiring sin as it is in an unrepentant state, it turns toward God and desires him instead.

"Luke 24:45-47 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

"2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."


Here is Strongs definition of "repentance" in these passages:

1.
metavnoia metanoia, met-an'-oy-ah; from 3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance.

Of course, scripture teaches that even the ability to repent is a gift of God.

God tells us in the context of a verse "what" repentance means. Let it be stated AGAIN we are discussing the word REPENT as it relates to being saved; i.e. SALVATION. And God surely would not violate previous doctrinal truth about GRACE SALVATION and make repentance to mean "turn from sinning" which you have been contending for. Show me a scripture where "turn from sinning" is essential for SALVATION.

You will note, Strong's Concordance does not even give the literal Greek root words which define it's true meaning to the English. Strong was not a fundamental theologian either and many of his definitions follow liberal thought Westcott/Hort renderings.

And why webster's dictionary? Intransitive verb? You have been saying REPENT OF "SINS" That is not intransitive. An intransitive verb is a verb with no object. In SALVATION VERSES repent has had an understood or is a transitive verb.

John baptized those who had ?repented? from their own righteousness and came ?confessing their sins?, or literally, confessing their sinfulness, (A very important verse Mat. 3:6). (See: Mark 1:4-5, a parallel account). This is repentance AT SALVATION. They came to John having "changed their minds" from trusting their own-righteousness by ?confessing their sins?. This is what the Pharisees and Sadducees lacked, they would not confess they were sinners, needing salvation. I refer you again to Romans 10:1-4 which states exactly what Israel needed to "change their minds" (REPENT) about".

The word REPENT never changes it's definition in scripture! The OBJECTS of repentance change, but "REPENT" is ALWAYS a "change of mind".

It is also rather ludicrous to try to encapsulate "turning from sins" (your definition of repent) as a gift so it is not a WORK. That is almost laughable is it wasn't such awful, contradictory logic.

Carrierwave~

[Carrierwave~]

Your constant accusations that repentance = works gets a little old. No one here is teaching works salvation, you are merely inaccurately proclaiming we are. If "repentance" is a "work" so is "belief". :roll

Seth,

Listen carefully, "NOT OF WORKS" spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 are WORKS OF THE LAW. I never said "repent" was a WORK OF THE LAW, because God's definition of REPENT is NOT a work of the Law. (Where is self-condemnation; "Lord have mercy on me, I am a condemned sinner", a work of the LAW, Seth?) Could you answer this one?

But when you give the erroneous definition that "repent" means "TURN FROM SINNING", that IS WORKS OF THE LAW. The instant you mention the word SIN you have invoked the LAW into the subject. 1 John 3:4 defines sin as the transgression of the LAW. To "turn from sin" is to "turn from transgressing the Law". The only way to stop trangressing the Law is the START KEEPING THE LAW.

Rom 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Study to shew thyself approved unto God! (REPENT SETH!)

Carrierwave~

[Guest Guest]

It is also rather ludicrous to try to encapsulate "turning from sins" (your definition of repent) as a gift so it is not a WORK. That is almost laughable is it wasn't such awful, contradictory logic.

"2 Timothy 2:24-25 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

This passage makes it pretty clear that it is a gift.

But when you give the erroneous definition that "repent" means "TURN FROM SINNING", that IS WORKS OF THE LAW. The instant you mention the word SIN you have invoked the LAW into the subject. 1 John 3:4 defines sin as the transgression of the LAW. To "turn from sin" is to "turn from transgressing the Law". The only way to stop trangressing the Law is the START KEEPING THE LAW.

I have said several times that "turning from sin" doesn't mean you are sinless, rather that you have had a change of heart. That change of heart is needful before God can save you. It is submitting to the righteousness of God. For some reason you think that a change of heart, "turning from your sins", is a work, although I certainly don't know why you would think that...

"Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."(Yes I know that David was already saved, you don't need to tell me that, the principle is the same though)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God! (REPENT SETH!)

I haven't made up my mind if you are a troll or just have "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." at the moment I am hoping and leaning toward the later. At any rate, I have indeed repented and turned to God and it is but a small thing that I should be judged of you. :cool

[1Timothy115]

Note the instances where God "reversed a previous decision". It is always when MAN decides to "change his mind" and believe GOD! What an awesome truth!

Your self-righteousness may consume you. God didn't reverse anything. Study further and deeper into the scriptures.
Here's a starter...
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

[Guest Guest]

And why webster's dictionary? Intransitive verb? You have been saying REPENT OF "SINS" That is not intransitive. An intransitive verb is a verb with no object. In SALVATION VERSES repent has had an understood or is a transitive verb.

Almost forgot, you are proving my point for me with that statement. :Green

If you will note websters lists your definition, "change of mind", as a intransitive verb too. Websters definition of when it is used as a transitive verb is: " to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for" which lines up very well with repentance being a change of heart as I have said all along.

[Carrierwave~]

Seth said this,

"That change of heart is needful before God can save you".

Repent, Seth.

Your heart will not change until AFTER you are Born again. This is the pattern throughout the Bible.

2Co 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Tit 3:8 "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works."

"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


(The changes of heart didn't come until after salvation by the Spirit according to God.) Clean-up BEFORE salvation? NOT!

Repent, Seth

[pneu-engine]

(The changes of heart didn't come until after salvation by the Spirit according to God.) Clean-up BEFORE salvation? NOT!

C-W,

You're confusing reformation with repentance and versey-vice-a.

Repentance is not a clean-up act, but rather is an about-face (i.e. a 180 deg. turn of the heart) from sin to God.

Now let's go back to my original O.P.::::::::::

I still maintain that the very first part of repentance comes as a result of God's drawing us to himself when we were still dead in trespasses and sins. If and only if we respond favorably/affirmatively/positively to the "drawing" from the Holy Spirit of God then He will give us the gift of His power to run into His outstretched arms. We cannot do this on our own since the devil has us in his clutches, and we are no match at all for Satan. This is where we need The power of God to intervene on our behalf.

Consider the song, "Amazing Love", by Chas. Wesley.

Pay particular attention to the fourth verse:::::::

.And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior's blood!
Died he for me? who caused his pain!
For me? who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?


2.
'Tis mystery all: th' Immortal dies!
Who can explore his strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
to sound the depths of love divine.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.


3.
He left his Father's throne above
(so free, so infinite his grace!),
emptied himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam's helpless race.
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!


4.
Long my imprisoned sprit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
5.
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in him, is mine;
alive in him, my living Head,
and clothed in righteousness divine,
bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.

[Guest Guest]

(The changes of heart didn't come until after salvation by the Spirit according to God.) Clean-up BEFORE salvation? NOT!

Clean up? No, you are again attempting to put words in my mouth. I have never said repentance is cleaning up your act, and to say that is untruthful. It would seem you yourself need to repent of deliberately misrepresenting others given that you can't possibly be making a mistake considering how many times I have clarified.

Salvation happens in this order, God draws the person, the person believes and repents(a change of heart) then Christ saves the person and they are a new creature in him.


"Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."

"Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

"Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

"Joel 2:12-13 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

These verses show that a degree of heart change must happen before God can save. Otherwise they are just content in their sin.


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, another verse showing that salvation requires a certain amount of heart change first.

[JerryNumbers]

Clean up? No, you are again attempting to put words in my mouth. I have never said repentance is cleaning up your act, and to say that is untruthful. It would seem you yourself need to repent of deliberately misrepresenting others given that you can't possibly be making a mistake considering how many times I have clarified.

Salvation happens in this order, God draws the person, the person believes and repents(a change of heart) then Christ saves the person and they are a new creature in him.


"Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."

"Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

"Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

"Joel 2:12-13 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

These verses show that a degree of heart change must happen before God can save. Otherwise they are just content in their sin.


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, another verse showing that salvation requires a certain amount of heart change first.

The trouble with many is they have followed Carrierwave reasoning and never had a change of heat nor mind, they claim to believe, but yet they never understand the truth.

As someone has already said, The devil believes but trembles.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But he never had a change of mind nor heart, he is still the full fledged devil.

I don't believe y'all are getting anywhere with this person.

[Carrierwave~]

Your self-righteousness may consume you. God didn't reverse anything. Study further and deeper into the scriptures.
Here's a starter...
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Man's definition compared to the actual Greek words from God's Holy text are different and YOU KNOW IT.
That's the problem which you do not want to face--man's words or God's Word. Your Choice is clear, Seth

Repent, Seth

[Carrierwave~]

Man's definition compared to the actual Greek words from God's Holy text are different and YOU KNOW IT.
That's the problem which you do not want to face--man's words or God's Word. Your Choice is clear, Seth

Repent, Seth

(I can just see you standing before God fumbling around trying to find a Webster's dictionary; Repent Seth)