Tribulation

[Jerry]

Randy, one of the rules we have on OB is that all Scriptural quotations must be from the KJV. You can easily do that by using the Bible link at the top of each page.

[RandyW]

Context is very important when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of truth. Who is Jesus speaking to or about in Matthew 24, and who is being spoken to in 1 Thessalonians 4? In the first case it is the Jews, in the second the church. The Jews were prophesied that they would go through this time of trouble; whereas the church has been promised deliverance from that time of God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Rev 16:15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

The timing of REV 16:15 is the same as Jesus taught in the Gospels. The last day of the great tribulation and is indeed tied to the 1st Ress. So what point were you making in 1 Thess 5:1-11?

Randy

[RandyW]

It requires "TWO" to have a "Covenant", Israel hasn't put her "Signature on the dotted line" of the New Covenant yet, one of the reasons God reserved the last week of Daniels prophecy for the last week before Jesus returns.

Those who have signed the covenant are "Worthy" to escape all the "tribulations", they're attending the "Lamb's marriage supper" during the "tribulations".

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Yes, it required me to receive Christ Jesus as Lord and savior. One question I ask those in modern judaism is, "how does God write the new covenant on our hearts"?

Randy

[RandyW]

Randy, one of the rules we have on OB is that all Scriptural quotations must be from the KJV. You can easily do that by using the Bible link at the top of each page.

I was not aware of the rule. If I post scripture I will henceforth submit to that rule though I have found the meaning to be the same when comparing the verses.

Randy

[Jerry]

[The timing of REV 16:15 is the same as Jesus taught in the Gospels. The last day of the great tribulation and is indeed tied to the 1st Ress. So what point were you making in 1 Thess 5:1-11?

1 Thessalonians 5 is in the same context of chapter 4 - the Day of the Lord (ie. tribulation) comes right after the rapture. Jesus coming as a thief is in regards to the lost, not to the saved.

[RandyW]

A "DAY" with God can be 24 hours, one years, or a thousand years.

The "Last day" in the context you're referring too is a "Thousand year day".

When Jesus returns, no one meet him "in the air", those dead who are not with Jesus are the unsaved dead, these remain dead, so "NO ONE" is resurrected "OUT OF THE GROUND" at Jesus's return.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the rapture Church, those martyred during the trib, all return with Jesus,

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Those who survived the trib will enter the MK.


In a "Rapture", people "LEAVE" the earth,

In a "Resurrection", they "RETURN" to the earth.

Which verse speaks of "just the rapture" to you?
Randy

[RandyW]

Wow - you sure got a busy day ahead of you! Good thing that I and most other Christians will have seven years in Heaven where we will experience the Judgment seat of Christ and the marriage supper of the Lamb before we come back to reign with Christ. Ah, the relaxed pace of Heaven...

If you believe in a rapture 7 sevens prior to the 2nd coming then you need to consider the things that must take place prior to the day of judgment. Babylon as one. Temple being rebuilt. Can the world field 200 million troops as one judgment has that number. I don't believe so at this time.

Well if the antichrist can find me I will be joining you quickly. If not I will being spreading the good news of the gospels.

Randy

[Jerry]

All this stuff can easily take place within those seven years, and are not needed prior to that time. Already China boasts of an army that size. The word for temple in Greek is naos, which is the term referring specifically to the Holy of holies, the inner sanctuary, and not the whole temple. It would be easy to build that in the first half of the tribulation and then have the antichrist defile it at the midpoint.

[RandyW]

All this stuff can easily take place within those seven years, and are not needed prior to that time. Already China boasts of an army that size. The word for temple in Greek is naos, which is the term referring specifically to the Holy of holies, the inner sanctuary, and not the whole temple. It would be easy to build that in the first half of the tribulation and then have the antichrist defile it at the midpoint.

China has a army of 200 million men? What is your source of this statistic? Doesn't rev 11 speak of more than a inner sanctuary?
What about babylon? (Land of Shinar)
Randy

[Jerry]

It is Daniel 9 and 2 Thessalonians 2 that refer to the Antichrist defiling the Holy place (ie. holy of holies) in the temple. Revelation 11 is referring to the whole temple (which could fit regardless of how much is build by then anyway - and the passage does not actually specify how big it is at that point in time), but 2 Thessalonians 2 which speaks of the Antichrist setting himself up as God in the temple is referring specifically to the Holy of Holies - the rest of the temple doesn't need to be built in order for him to desecrate that part of it.

[pneu-engine]

Well if the antichrist can find me I will be joining you quickly. If not I will being spreading the good news of the gospels.

Randy

Randy, if you are saved at the time the Rapture occurs you'll be caught up whether you believe it or not. The choice is not up to you or any other human creature. :lol

[RandyW]

Randy, if you are saved at the time the Rapture occurs you'll be caught up whether you believe it or not. The choice is not up to you or any other human creature. :lol

I would expect so. I don't see a pretrib rapture though. I believe when the Lord returns to destroy the AC He will bring back those that have fallen asleep in Christ. Those that are left alive on that day shall be caught up in the air and changed into their immortal bodies. Nobody goes back to heaven. That day we will be in Israel with the Lord. That day will be the start of the 1000 years. That day the door will be shut. But even up until that day, the body of Christ will still be on earth. Some chuches just put the 2nd coming and the judgment in the articles of faith and don't require a pretrib belief because of the many beliefs in the act itself.

Randy

[Me4Him]

China has a army of 200 million men? What is your source of this statistic? Doesn't rev 11 speak of more than a inner sanctuary?
What about babylon? (Land of Shinar)
Randy

China boast of a 200 million man army "YEARS" ago, and being able to lose the number of men in the US Army without even missing them (2-3 million), one of our Generals responded by saying he had one bomb that would destroy that many and he wouldn't miss it from his arsenal.

The Temple is "ALREADY BUILT", it's must be "PRE-FAB" off site and assembled on site, tools aren't allowed "on site".

De 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

The "ALTAR STONE" must be a "natural stone".

The "Temple Mount Group" already has this stone.

The remaining stone must be prepared before being brought to the site.

1Ki 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

After recapturing Jerusalem in the six day war, Israel's General, "Moshe Dyan", angrily responded to a reporter question if they would now rebuild the temple said:

"THE TEMPLE IS ALREADY BUILD".

Realizing what he had revealed, he turned and walked off.

How long do you think it will take to assemble this pre fab building, with everyone in Israel working around the clock, 60-90 days????

[Me4Him]

I would expect so. I don't see a pretrib rapture though. I believe when the Lord returns to destroy the AC He will bring back those that have fallen asleep in Christ. Those that are left alive on that day shall be caught up in the air and changed into their immortal bodies. Nobody goes back to heaven. That day we will be in Israel with the Lord. That day will be the start of the 1000 years. That day the door will be shut. But even up until that day, the body of Christ will still be on earth. Some chuches just put the 2nd coming and the judgment in the articles of faith and don't require a pretrib belief because of the many beliefs in the act itself.

Randy

In Matt 24, the disciples ask Jesus about his return, the "Day of the Lord", Jesus proceeded to describe all the events leading up to his return, but he never mentioned a "Rapture", "WHY"??

At the time the disciple were questioning Jesus, no one knew of a rapture, that was revealed years later by "PAUL",

If the rapture had been an event associated with Jesus's return, Jesus would have provided all the details and mentioned it in Matt 24, but he didn't.

The rapture was a "MYSTERY" that even Jesus didn't reveal while he was here, many passages "Allude" to the rapture but the mystery was kept until Paul.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Jesus's return to the earth in the "Day of the Lord" is no mystery, it's documented in both the OT/NT, however his return to rapture the church in the "DAY OF CHRIST", was "unexpected", "unrevealed" and "mysterious" until Paul revealed it.

[RandyW]

In Matt 24, the disciples ask Jesus about his return, the "Day of the Lord", Jesus proceeded to describe all the events leading up to his return, but he never mentioned a "Rapture", "WHY"??

At the time the disciple were questioning Jesus, no one knew of a rapture, that was revealed years later by "PAUL",

If the rapture had been an event associated with Jesus's return, Jesus would have provided all the details and mentioned it in Matt 24, but he didn't.

The rapture was a "MYSTERY" that even Jesus didn't reveal while he was here, many passages "Allude" to the rapture but the mystery was kept until Paul.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Jesus's return to the earth in the "Day of the Lord" is no mystery, it's documented in both the OT/NT, however his return to rapture the church in the "DAY OF CHRIST", was "unexpected", "unrevealed" and "mysterious" until Paul revealed it.

Paul didn't teach of a pretrib rapture. In what age was the doctrine of a pretrib rapture introduced and by who? Perhaps you should look at that foundation. My foundation will remain with the testimony of Jesus. China can't raise a army of 200 million at this time nor does scripture point to just one nation rasing that number anyway let alone china. The temple hasn't been rebuilt. The land of shinar isn't ruling over that nations yet.
Randy