Eschatological confusion

[Joe Chandler]

Perhaps all the information that we all seek to have a perfect understanding of the end times is not available to us. John is told to seal up certain things and Daniel shut up the vision. Daniel is also astonished and says that none understood it. 

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Daniel 8:26-27 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

[SureWord]

Yes, like Gog and Magog. Nobody really knows who it is. I've heard loads of theories. Josephus said the Jews at the time thought it was the Scythians to the north.

At the time the NT was being written nobody would have had any idea about Islam since it did not exist. Now there are a billion on the earth. 

So, Gog and Magog most likely does not presently exist.

[Joe Chandler]

36 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Yes, like Gog and Magog. Nobody really knows who it is. I've heard loads of theories. Josephus said the Jews at the time thought it was the Scythians to the north.

At the time the NT was being written nobody would have had any idea about Islam since it did not exist. Now there are a billion on the earth. 

So, Gog and Magog most likely does not presently exist.

That is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. Is America in prophecy. I have seen folks wax eloquent on this topic. My answer remains that I do not know. I believe what the Bible says, but not necessarily what people say it means.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

21 hours ago, Joe Chandler said:

That is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. Is America in prophecy. I have seen folks wax eloquent on this topic. My answer remains that I do not know. I believe what the Bible says, but not necessarily what people say it means.

John explains "Gog and Magog" in the very sentence it's mentioned. "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8).

 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

On 5/22/2023 at 6:34 PM, Joe Chandler said:

Perhaps all the information that we all seek to have a perfect understanding of the end times is not available to us. John is told to seal up certain things and Daniel shut up the vision. Daniel is also astonished and says that none understood it. 

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Daniel 8:26-27 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

I believe understanding is available, but various explanations confuse people and keep them from grasping it.

"And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it" (Dan. 8:26-27).

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
none understood it—He had heard of kings, but knew not their names; He foresaw the events, but not the time when they were to take place; thereupon he could only feel "astonished," and leave all with the omniscient God [Jerome].

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased . . . And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:4-10). Note, Daniel speaks of the wise gaining understanding.

The idea that we cannot properly understand Revelation would undermine the intention of the prophecy which is outlined in Revelation 1:1-3, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

The prophecy was sent in the form of a letter to the seven churches so that they would understand what was imminent. Their and our ability to understand the scope of eschatology in Revelation is not determined by Revelation 10:4, "And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." This verse only deals with what "the seven thunders uttered" and not the prophecy as a whole or its other aspects. That said, I believe the incident conveyed the meaning that was to be understood or it would not have been mentioned.

If "[t]he secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29). How much shouldn't the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" belong to the seven churches (and the entire Church) to who God sent it?

Edited May 23, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
Added: "and not the prophecy as a whole or its other aspects. That said"

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

Perhaps John was inspired to write of his experience, of hearing "the seven thunders" and being told not to convey what he heard, to illustrate to the churches that there is more than what was being revealed that they don't need to know. God and His ways are always more than the revelation we receive, but we have received what we need to understand.

What John heard is perhaps similar to what Paul wrote, "And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (2 Cor. 12:3-4).

Edited May 23, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley