Jerry

Christ's body was sinless - there was no sin in Him. He was tempted to prove He wouldn't sin, not because He had a sin nature. The sin nature comes through the man (according to Romans 5) - that is why Christ had a virgin birth. He was not conceived of the seed of man but by the Holy Spirit. Also, the passage you refer to does not say when perfect knowledge comes, but when THAT which is perfect comes - a specific thing (or according to what you said earlier, a specific person - which I disagree it is referring to). When the Bible refers to believers being mature/perfect, it is ALWAYS presented as something we can strive for and achieve here and now - or the promises and commands to do so would be fruitless and contradictory. No believer has "arrived" in this life - but all can go on unto perfection (Hebrews 5-12-6:1): Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (ie. mature spiritually - same underlying word in Greek as used in the next verse), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Deuteronomy 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day. 1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. 1 Chronicles 29:9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy. 2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. Matthew 5:46-48 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (We CAN be perfect - mature spiritually - in the manner of how we treat our enemies, we can be like God/Jesus by obeying His commands and following His example) Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Ephesians 4:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. James 1:3-4 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. 1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. References to the Word of God being perfect (ie. complete - see also Revelation 22:18-19): Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Yes, because they are Reformed Calvinists, claiming to teach Reformed doctrine (ie. of the Protestant Reformation). Masters Theological Seminary (the MacArthur crowd) claims this, as does Piper, Sproul, and other popular mainstream Calvinists. I would be curious to know which ones are actually Protestant in their positions (ie. take a stand and preach against Roman Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy). It does appear that many Baptists do claim to be Protestants in that sense - though maybe they use the terms Reformed Doctrine and Reformed Calvinism to make a distinction between them and between actual Protestants.

Then why doesn't it say when that which is perfect comes again? Also, perfect in the Bible does not mean sinless, it means complete or mature spiritually (when referring to a person). Jesus was already complete when He came the first time, except for the matter of learning obedience through suffering - but He did learn that (ie. was completed already in that manner according to Hebrews) before He died, arose, and ascended to Heaven. Though the Word of God is already completed/perfected with the writing of the book of Revelation (and passages within the Bible itself refer to the Word as already perfect - the law of the Lord is perfect, the perfect law of liberty, etc.).

I was referring to 1 Corinthians 13, not every use in the Bible. Also, 1 John indicates clearly who is in view. The argument with 1 Corinthians 13 is that that passage does not. So where are you going in your disagreement? You think God is still giving sign gifts to the churches today - you think that there are actually churches today that are obeying the instructions in 1 Corinthians 12-14 on the use of signs gifts? There are none I have ever seen - though I have seen churches where the commands given in 1 Corinthians 14 is applied to foreign language speakers and singers.

Morales has a bad habit of separating Baptists from everyone else when he is posting or starting threads. Yes, there are some Baptist Distinctives and some things Baptists stand for and believe (historically anyway) that some other people or denominations don't - but usually his posts don't seem to be about positive things, but seem to be about lumping all "Baptists" together in some negative sense.

When they don't preach on their Calvinism, they have a lot of excellent messages. My two favourite Free Presbyterians - often listened to in years past - are Alan Cairns (Greenville, SC, Let The Bible Speak Radio) and William McCrea (from Magherafelt Free Presbyterian Church). Clarence Sexton has preached at McCrea's church multiple times through the years. Cairns retired but still does some preaching, and I think his old sermons can be found at SermonAudio.com and in podcast apps.

Some info from Wikipedia - just for general info, I am sure wickedpedia has its biases. Ian Paisley - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster Both this last link and others on Free Presbyterian indicate their doctrinal position is Fundamentalist Calvinism The fact they are not independent is my biggest problem with them - but the preachers I have listened to throughout the years don't seem to have their sermons and subjects dictated to them (like some denominations)**. Perhaps this denomination's affiliation with other Free Presbyterian churches is to make sure they do not depart from their fundamentalist doctrine and practices - though if the headquarters goes astray and enforces their changes down the line, then that would certainly be a problem. **I got saved in an Alliance church, and that is how they were in the 90's. Headquarters dictated what was taught in each sunday school class, and any deviation from that curriculum in an individual church had to be approved or they could get in trouble with their headquarters.

Free Presbyterians are fundamentalists - but they are also clearly Calvinists, and that can be verified by reading their individual church/ministry doctrinal statements, and the official (if that is the right term) doctrine of the Free Presbyterian denomination. And according to the posters in this thread, if someone is an evangelical they are not a Protestant and vice verse - Free Presbyterians are definitely Protestants**, heavy emphasis on protesting against the Catholic church (Paisley especially). **Nothing wrong with being a Protestant - what matters is the doctrine and what Gospel they are trusting in. I considered myself a protestant for at least the first six years of being saved, though I was saved in an Evangelical church. I am still a Protestant in the sense of protesting the Catholic church, though now doctrinally I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist (believing all the Baptist Distinctives). Though technically, I personally qualify as a Protestant as I came out of a (nominal) Catholic background. If that was confusing, sorry about that.

Ian Paisley was a Free Presbyterian. Aside from his Calvinism and heavy emphasis on preaching against Catholicism, Free Presbyterians have a lot in common with Independant Fundamental Baptists, even the same King James Bible. I have actually been blessed through the years by listening to several Free Presbyterian preachers. Poor wording on my part perhaps - but I was saying many evangelicals and many Protestants (not saying they were the same people) at one time preached the true Gospel of salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

A cult/false religion is not expanding the kingdom of God. They are not "soul winning" as they believe in another gospel. Soul winning is giving the truth about our sins, and about Jesus and what He has done to provide our salvation. Where does the line get drawn? In what sense? For salvation? Works play no part in salvation whatsoever. Whoever is trusting in their works to save them is not trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work upon the cross of Calvary. Once someone places their faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ, then they are to serve Him, which is where works come in. Our lives are now to reflect that we have been redeemed by the Saviour and we no longer serve sin or live like the lost of this world. Once someone is saved, sharing the Gospel with others would certainly count as a work (ie. in obedience to our Lord) - but is something that is judged and rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ, and is not anything that adds to or takes away from our eternal salvation.

That is not what God's Word says: 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:3-4 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1 Corinthians 14:9-11 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 1 Corinthians 14:12-17 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. If there is no interpreter, God says those that are speaking foreign languages must keep silent in the church. This even includes singing according to verse 15. If no one understands it, it does not edify the church - and THAT IS THE WHOLE REASON God gave spiritual gifts to the church, so the church may be edified, built up in the faith and in the truth, strengthened to serve the Lord. An emotional song does not do that unless the church understands it too.

That makes NO sense whatsoever. Charity was already there, not something that was still to come. Funny you have such an issue with the Greek underlying the King James Bible (we wouldn't have the KJV without the underlying Greek and Hebrew - which the TR is exactly the same in meaning as we find in the English of our KJV), but you have no problem with a wacko youtube preacher that adds his own imagination to the Bible to bring things out of it that NEVER were in it to begin with.

Way of Life Encyclopedia It is definitely worth getting - whether ebook or hardcover. I have both. The hardcover is a big book with 718 pages, two columns per page. Even if someone disagrees with some of his conclusions (though I have no problem with what I have read), he gives tons of Bible references and backs up his research. That link above will show you what kind of articles he has in his Encyclopedia - everything from a Bible dictionary defining every name and hard word in the KJV, to articles on cults and denominations (including Bible studies refuting the false doctrines of the cults), things about church history. Bible versions, Bible prophecy, geography, topical studies, extrabiblical Christian terms, types, Bible customs, articles on issues of Christian living, among others.

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but the word perfect here is neuter - if it was referring to Jesus (ie. a person), it would be masculine. Also, Jesus was already complete when He was on earth the first time. The only thing that was not complete until He experienced it was suffering for our sins: Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; But by the time any of the NT was written, that was already past - this is still referring to something future (ie. after the time of the writing of the NT church epistles). I am not sure where you are going with the rest of your post above, unless you are stating it is when Jesus returns (well, rapture as He is dealing with the church in that verse) that we are made like Him - which makes sense, as we will get our resurrected bodies then.

Well, anyone attempting to add their works, even baptism, to the Gospel is dead wrong, regardless of what denomination or type of church they may identify themselves with.

Forcing your opinion is not trying your best nor trying to fit in on a message board. He was trying to take away people's choice in regards to the vaccine and berating them when he didn't accept his OPINION. I am not trying to be a jerk - but try studying that one out in your Bible and see if that is a Christian attitude. Romans 14 is a good place to start. There are also clear passages against forcing people to comply with your spiritual views or pushing people to go against their conscience, which he kept attempting to do.

The following is a partial entry from the Way of Life Encyclopedia - quoting it mainly for the references: DAY OF CHRIST. The period of time when Christ will take control of the world through judgment and His Second Coming (1 Co. 1:8; 5:5; 2 Co. 1:14; Ph. 1:6, 10; 2:16; 2 Th. 2:2, 3).

As far as I know, Razor was banned from these boards for creating problems and going against the Mods instructions to him.

Most, if not all, "evangelical" (and most who would consider themselves Protestant) churches at one point in time taught and preached this. The Bible teaches we are in the time of the falling away before the return of Christ, and I believe there are many who no longer stand where they once did - including even many "Baptist" churches.

Morales, I know it bothers me and others on these boards when you make broad statements, such as Baptists do this or that. There may be some, even many that do not preach on certain things, and there are certainly many others that do. My church preaches on the 10 commandments. I do not know if my current church has ever preached a whole message on tongues, but we believe tongues are earthly languages - like the front of any King James Bible states, translated out of the original tongues (ie. Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek). I have heard many references throughout the years against modern day tongues speaking, how those who practice it today do not believe they are earthly languages, nor do they follow the instructions on how to use other languages in church services today (again, we do not believe ANYONE today is being given the gift of tongues or any sign gifts). If a missionary who only speaks a foreign language wants to preach or sing a song in that foreign language it is not acceptable unless there is a translator so that the church will be edified through the understanding of what is being preached or sung, as 1 Corinthians 14 teaches.

You lost me there. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Perfect means complete. There are multiple verses in the Bible itself that refers to God's Word being perfect - and we find God's warning in Revelation 22 referring to the completed Word of God, not to add to or take away with the completion/perfection of God's written revelation to man.

Maybe "far spent" in Romans 13:12 means far along, almost over, rather than I was taking it to mean that it was over. I am not 100 % sure (haven't studied that exact phrase out yet.) Yes, the Day of the Lord includes all of the events of the Tribulation and Millennium (and probably the Great White Throne Judgment as well), which would make that prophetic Day at least 1007 years long. The Day of Christ, the Day of Jesus, the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ, etc. is obviously the Day that happens in. Perhaps it would be profitable to look up all the references that use all or part of that phrase (easiest way to find them all is look up Day and notice which ones refer to Christ in the same phrase). From what I have studied a long time ago, the Day of Christ is at the start of the Day of the Lord (though that could be people's opinions), AND maybe it is the term used to describe the time period in Heaven where Christ is dealing with His church (as the references I looked up the other day seemed all or mostly to do with the church - though was not exactly looking for that context, just for certain phrases), and the Day of the Lord is the time period where God is judging the world, dealing with the world. Yes, Revelation does cover some scenes in Heaven, but they are preparatory to doing something on earth.

Scrivener's is one of the Textus Receptus Greek mansucripts. There are multiple manuscripts that make up a "stream" of manuscripts.

Many times - however, only nine of the Ten are restated in the NT. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, as He is our rest; therefore that command does not apply to the church today.

I do not believe the Bible refers to any time in prophecy as the night (unless it was directed at an individual), other than to say the night is past already. Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Several times Christ states He will return and catch the lost off guard like a thief in the night, but that is not the same as referring to that time as night. In both Testaments, the end times are referred to as the day of the Lord, day of my wrath. In the NT, various places refer to the Day of Christ Jesus, day of Jesus, day of our Lord Jesus, etc. (worded various ways - just look up "day" in the NT and you will see what I mean). From what I recall of studying out endtimes prophecy in the past, some people have referred to the Day of Christ Jesus as a subset of the Day of the Lord - but still occurring during part of the same time as the Day of the Lord (though not encompassing all of the same time). A few places the end times are referred to as a time of darkness, even a day of darkness: Amos 5:18-20 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? Zephaniah 1:14-15 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,