Dr. Robert S. Morley

I reference whatever I quote so people can verify I'm not plagiarizing. Did I quote outside of the KJV again? Or are you keeping a record of wrongs? Btw, so you did pray that for Trump too? Or is he not wicked in your eyes?

I am, in the first place, neither conservative nor liberal. I aim to be biblical and to live and speak truth. "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:13-15). In the heat of the American Civil War, one of President Lincoln’s advisors said he was grateful that God was on the side of the Union. Lincoln replied, “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.” Taken from Our Daily Bread.

Did you laugh at the account of Adam? What about the account of the valley of dry bones? What of Ecclesiastes 11:5? Odder to me is the idea that 1 in every 2 zygotes that are being discarded as we speak are considered human beings by those who believe a human being is formed at conception. Here are extracts from my book (I put a key point in bold): Despite that soul reproduction appears to have been made innately transferable, it remains a challenge to determine the starting point of personhood in human offspring. It would seem reasonable to conclude that each zygote is an entire living soul from conception. However, it may be that the soul remains untriggered for weeks after conception has occurred. This delay would be not unlike the eyes opening in the womb during fetal development. Such a delay seems plausible, especially considering the high spontaneous loss in pregnancy in the first trimester. Should one view these tragedies as the loss of children, or are they the tragic loss of valuable material and the potential of children? . . . It remains unclear whether or not personhood gets established at conception, i.e., during fertilization, which can occur as quickly as 30 minutes after ejaculation of semen into a woman’s vagina right up until five days later, or during the implantation of the zygote into the uterus, which is another 5-6 days after that. Nor whether it’s from around 5 ½ weeks when a heartbeat can be detected or later. But one thing is biblically clear; personhood does begin in the womb. ABORTION AND THE BIBLE: Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right? Dr. Robert S. Morley

I'm speaking to brothers and sisters in Christ, whom I love dearly. My wife and children are American and so is her family. If Jonah is a lesson to go by, I should not worry about nationality either. Yes, the humor was hard to decipher after that sentiment was publically spread: "Lauren Boebert receives cheers at a Christian center after saying she prays that Biden's 'days be few and another take his office'"

That's not what 1 Timothy 2:1-2 instructs you to pray. "Let his days be few; and let another take his office" (Psalm 109:8) is a terrible thing to pray. It refers to the days of his life, that he die an untimely death. Did you pray the same for Trump?

The Art of a Bad Deal Trump sold himself to the ignorant as their future President, piggybacking many of their desires for policy. Perhaps the most significant moral issue that Trump embraced was that of abortion. One could say that Trump offered Christians the unborn in exchange for the White House. Ironically, his mismanagement of the coronavirus, and later the Black Lives Matter movement in the wake of the death of George Floyd, showed that lives didn’t matter to him. Trump promised to appoint conservative judges, which pleased most Christians. It so happened that three judges got appointed during Trump’s Presidency, which is remarkable because judges get replaced after a lifetime of service. Many evangelicals hope this will lead to overturning the Roe vs. Wade decision. However, the trade-off that required forsaking good character in a Presidential candidate has led to other problems. Satan offered more than a pro-life stance and conservative judges to Jesus. He offered authority over all the kingdoms. But Jesus never made deals with evil. Instead, he chose obedience to a longer and more rewarding road. Yet evangelicals have thought to make power deals with a man whose attributes are just like Satan’s, who abuses people, lies, and kills with his lust for power. In so doing, it is evident that Satan has duped them into supporting an antichrist. EVANGELICALS, TRUMP, AND THE BIBLE: The Bride and The Beast of The Apocalypse Dr. Robert S. Morley

Are you praying what God has instructed you to pray, too? "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty" (1 Tim. 2:1-2).

You should ask a question rather than judge me. I was not trying to get around anything. As for Psalm 51, "Good grief" (as you'd say), I am not saying that the parents were in any particular sin as you assume. We are born sinners because sin is passed down generationally. David recognized this innate human condition was passed down to him at conception. The accounts of creation and of the valley dry bones show a two-stage process. First, the physical is brought together and then the breath of life is given. These don't stand alone but are corroborated by what I have shown elsewhere. For example, Ecclesiastes 11:5. Believe what you will, but the burden of proof lies with those who claim that ensoulment is immediate. Btw, where have I presumed anyone is prideful? I would love to apologize if I did (and if they hadn't been). I cannot remember. Or are you perhaps presuming something of me again? You have already judged me twice in this comment of yours I'm responding to.

Having written a book on the topic, I am aware of the biblical texts and the views other Christians have. I include some in my book. I am also aware of what many would like to have legislated based on their exegesis. That said, I am open to discussing anything on the subject, for we all see in part. It would, however, be more constructive for discussion purposes, and for those who might be following and/or interacting on the thread, if rather than filling the comment box with links, you present points from those articles that you agree with (even several points at a time). In that context, links would be a welcome reference.

I'm glad you agree character matters. However, you go on to dismiss this point, saying, "yet . . . " Throughout the Bible, God is seen acting differently toward those who unwittingly sin, stumble into sin, or repent, to those who are outright arrogant and rebellious. Americans were so fixated on getting the right policies that they gave the soul of the country to an outright antichrist. Putin may offer all we'd want, too. Hitler made alliances, too. Jesus knew not to succumb to the offer of worldly power at the hands of the devil, yet we justify the end by the means and get into bed with his antichrists.

My comment to TGL - "Or is it as the Pharisees, from a limited knowledge of God's word and from assumptions you and others have concerning what the texts actually say?" - was rhetorical. And, yes, a limited "COMPREHENSION" is what I meant when I said they had limited knowledge. Jesus spoke similarly when He said, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (Matt. 22:29). Perhaps you want to create a TOV (Tony-Only Version) where you correct the KJV interpreters? ?

I prefer to consider Scripture than find a hundred internet articles that back my view.

You're not carefully listening to my biblical presentation. 1) I have given a biblical case that we don't know know when ensoulment occurs. 2) I have presented biblical evidence of a two stage process in human formation. 3) I've suggested this means we have a window in which to act. Consequently, I don't believe Jesus would have us kill any human being in the womb.

Absolutely not. My biblical reasons are as follows: Marriage is designed to be between one male and one female. This is corroborated by the law and in the New Testament that consider homosexuality an iniquity, and the practice of homosexual sex, outright rebellion, sinful, and an abomination.

Regardless of the percentage, a false choice is often presented between murder or carrying with adoption. This is a fallacy based on unbiblical assumptions around certain texts and ignoring others. I'm offering a biblical view. Jesus helped solve rare issues too. He also healed a man born blind, which the Pharisees opposed because they just weren't understanding the Scriptures concerning the Sabbath.

Lovely testimony, Tony! I have valued the prayer support of the our church and key individuals in particular, especialy when our family has gone through a crisis. It really is a huge blessing to have "a support system that many in the world don't have today." And, yes, TGL, it is a blessing to experience joy about things and for others that we might physically be disconnected from but are still somehow connected to.

Does character matter? https://twitter.com/AnonOpsUnited2/status/1651218983389917189 I do not endorse all the activities of Anonymous.

In the case of your or your friend's wife being raped, are you sure you're speaking to her as Jesus would from God's word. Or is it as the Pharisees, from a limited knowledge of God's word and from assumptions you and others have concerning what the texts actually say? What if you knew it was life-threatening for her to carry? What of a nine-year-old? And, what of incest?

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). This verse appears to refer to the sin of the parents carried through at conception, the manifestation of which can occur when ensoulment occurs. Let me give a natural analogy to explain what I'm saying. The genetic code for eyesight for a person comes at conception, but the eyes are only formed later in the pregnancy.

Firstly, I'm not getting around the Bible. The Bible has always been my foundation and I have given biblical evidence of two stages in the creation of a human being. The Bible, however, leaves the exact beginning of the human spirit in the human frame a mystery. Secondly, and only ever secondly, I have given medical evidence to show that science does not contradict the Bible but, if anything, corroborates the texts that show two stages in the formation of a human being. Btw, they may not have had the same means to end pregnancies then but, in some instances, they sure did try. Should we use incubators to save babies? It seems from your premise that God knows who should live or not and that we shouldn't interfere by using science. I'm not asking us to neglect God's word but to use it properly. I believe many of us have assumptions about what each of the key biblical texts mean individually, and what the Bible as a whole has to say on this subject. To give you an idea of my approach, this is the description of my book, ABORTION AND THE BIBLE, Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right? This book offers an appraisal of the more prominent biblical texts that shed light on the issue of abortion. As it seeks to give unbiased interpretations of these scriptures, the book exposes biblical assumptions and incongruent views held by both pro-life and pro-choice factions on this hotly divisive topic. Consideration gets made of how the predominant evangelical view - that life begins at conception - fits and contrasts with the Bible. Also, what does the Bible say about pregnancy, the unborn, miscarriage, and abortion? What does it not say? And does it answer when personhood begins? Are there circumstances where the termination of an unwanted pregnancy would be morally acceptable? Here's an extract from the conclusion of my book: Humility Required A single sperm cell and a viable egg have immense value for reproduction. More valuable still is the fused zygote, embryo, and fetus. Nevertheless, “among philosophers there is no consensus as to whether all human entities including the zygote, embryo, and fetus constitute human persons” (Miklavcic & Flaman, 2017). These philosophers include Bible-believing Christians who offer biblical support for their belief that abortion should be allowed in various circumstances. And though they are limited in the scope of biblical texts that they can appeal to, the pro-life base has nothing that proves immediate personhood at conception. On a broader note, both groups can appeal to the general witness of the Scriptures that support their views. Though no scriptures confirm when personhood begins, there is plenty of biblical evidence of personhood in the womb. However, the high loss of zygotes seems to indicate that this period is too soon. Likewise, the relatively high frequency of spontaneous abortions before 20 weeks, coupled with the disparity in human behavior toward the loss of early and late pregnancies, may roughly indicate a time frame for the absence and onset of personhood. Also, the moral inconsistency seen in the willingness to terminate life conceived by rape or incest might suggest a lack of biblical certainty by evangelicals that a human being comes into existence at conception. Consequently, an open-minded discussion should continue about whether terminating a pregnancy early on is killing an unborn child or stopping the potential of personhood from manifesting. If one seeks unity on this subject, our study and interaction must include humility, for God resists the proud (Jas. 4:6), and the fear of God that leads to wisdom (Prov. 9:10), and the love of God evidenced by obedience to His commands (1 John 5:3). These include “You shall not murder” (Exod. 20:13) and “love your enemies” (Matt. 5:44). However, don’t presuppose the only murder under scrutiny is that of the aborted unborn. The unloving approach, assumptions concerning God’s word, and lack of understanding of the topic have subjected many to feel alienated and even hated, which, biblically speaking, is akin to murder (1 John 3:15).

Below is food for thought regarding the timing of "conception" and pregnancy, and I also mention the 1 in 2 loss of zygotes: According to an article in Medical News Today by Villines (2022), titled, What is conception and when does it happen? [t]he term “conception” usually refers to fertilization, which is the first step in the biological process that leads to pregnancy. It happens when a sperm fertilizes an egg (para. 1). Villines explains that it can take several days for sperm that has entered a woman’s vagina during sexual intercourse to make its way to the uterus to find the egg, stating that healthy sperm can survive up to 5 days in the body. Significantly, [c]onception does not always lead to pregnancy. A person is technically not pregnant until implantation has occurred. This is the moment when the fertilized egg implants into the lining of a uterus, which occurs around 5–6 days after fertilization. (para. 7). Villines adds, “an estimated 50% of all fertilized eggs do not implant and leave the body the same way as unfertilized eggs do — during menstruation” (para. 8). The high loss makes the idea that zygotes are human beings seem unlikely. If so, then implantation may be the first reasonable point from which to begin considering the likelihood of personhood. ABORTION AND THE BIBLE, Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right?

The divorce is not a sin. However, abortion at 8 weeks is possibly a sin as it may already be too late to avoid terminating a human being. God knows. Much prayer would be needed. Truth is, no one knows when ensoulment occurs. If the bones are a measure, then at 8 weeks the somites disappear and joints start forming and, at 10 weeks, bone tissue forms and starts hardening (ossification) (Kathleen Scogna | Medically reviewed by Liz Donner, M.D., pediatric hospitalist | Aug 18, 2021). If one's wife was raped, or if someone's child was impregnated through incest, and they had been too embarrassed about it that they only came forward at 8 weeks, what would you do? For that matter, what would you do if it happened yesterday?

(Here's my post without the examples of how Ecclesiastes 11:5 is translated in the ESV and NAB, which some might find displeasing. I've only used the KJV and have included Clarke and Benson as examples of how others interpret the KJV.) I believe early abortion is a solution for incest, rape, and other unwanted pregnancies that avoids "killing" human beings. The creation account of Genesis 2:7 and the reassembling of human life in Ezekiel 37:7-10 show a two stage process where the physical precedes the soul. They read as follows: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7 KJV). "So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army" (Ezek. 37:7-10 KJV) Ecclesiastes 11:5 reads, "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (KJV). Some commentries on this verse suggest the possibility of a two-phase process in human formation. For example, Clarke's commentry reads, "thou canst not tell . . . how their soul is united to their body, how it came to inform that body, or how the child was formed in the womb of its mother." The Benson Commentary of Ecclesiastes 11:5 interprets the KJV similarly. It reads, "As thou knowest not the way of the spirit — Of the soul of man, how it comes into the child in the womb; or how it is united with the body; or how, and whether it goes out of the body." If the biblical accounts that show two stages of human formation are a template for how human life develops, which some commentators of Ecclesiastes 11:5 suggest possible, then ensoulment occurs some time after conception. Consequently, a human zygote would not have a soul and would not yet be a human being. Furthermore, “the 1 in 2 loss of zygotes, spontaneous abortions, and the human response to them, may corroborate that a gap exists between conception and personhood” (Preface – Abortion and the Bible: Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right?).

I thought we were talking about Rick Warren. That's who you asked me about.

Not all mega church pastors are the same. You might want to read the article, Rick Warren: The Purpose-Driven Pastor. Here's an extract: Warren became a household name, and his book became the biggest blockbuster in American publishing history. Even though he began to "reverse tithe" — that is, to give away 90 percent of his income — he was still earning millions in royalties. More than that, he had cultural influence approaching that of the Rev. Billy Graham. But this success prompted him to do some soul searching. Warren realized that the American evangelicalism he had pioneered catered to the needs of the rich while ignoring the poor. "I had to repent," he told a group of religion writers in 2005. "I had to say 'God, I'm sorry, I can't think of the last time I thought of widows and orphans.' " Warren began spending much of his time in Africa, making AIDS, poverty and illiteracy his top priorities, and trying to shift evangelicals in a new direction — as he put it, "from self-centeredness to unselfishness."