Dr. Robert S. Morley

I agree with the application. I would say though that Preterism is at least literarily plausible, unlike Futurism. Pretrism functions if it's not too strict, by recognizing the prophecy was designed to extend beyond the 1st audience John wrote to. I have written of a "multi-generational view." For, "there is no doubt John was addressing the 1st century Church of his day (Preterist view), yet the symbols were intentionally written so that they would relate to every succeeding generation too (Idealist view)."

In case you missed it, I did apologize, saying, "Sorry, to be clear, your use of English is correct in a certain context." What you said now was rude, judgmental, and uncalled for. And, considering the forum is "Interacting with Love," it seems you are the one who will not listen to the admonishment in the opening comment. Also, "thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things" (Rom. 2:1). On that note, I have changed my mind. I will leave our discussion completely and devote this forum to prayer. I have said enough. God bless, Rob

I need to stop my interaction as it is in the middle of the night where I am. I'll read whatever you post when I get a chance. Also, if there is something that is really pressing that you wanted me to respond to, let me know and I will see if I can help. God bless

The issue is with the term "feel loving." The use of "we" is often used to speak politely, but imply a person. I had no idea what the sentence meant and so I asked.

"And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another" (Rom. 15:14).

Or perhaps, "to feel love all the time." Sorry, to be clear, your use of English is correct in a certain context. However, the words in that context didn't make sense to me, which is why I asked the question.

"I understand that it can be difficult to feel loving all the time" The overall context was about my feelings, therefore, saying "to feel loving all the time" does seem fit. Whereas, "feel loved all the time" does.

Free will does not detach me from responsibility. If necessary, I will lovingly point out serious issues. I am not upset if my advice is ignored. But, if led, I will contend against unbiblical reasoning.

This is the biblical approach: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16). Your biblical approach sounds Christlike but is lacking. You know Proverbs is full of advice on correcting. It's not comfortable but it is necessary for fostering healthy environments. Robust interaction is one thing. However, by way of one example, do you condone an administrator saying to a newcomer, or anybody for that matter, "Oh, knock off the whining about being judged"?

You suggested that my reference to feelings made my case subjective when you said: . . . Yes, we are commanded to love, but you mentioned feeling an unloved environment which is an emotion and can be subjective to the context of the situation. I was trying to help you my friend. One is an action and one is a emotion. The reason why the word "feel" loved was mentioned was because of your previous wording of not feeling a loving environment. Which again can be subjective since we don't know each others hearts. You should have been more investigative of what might be quite serious than palm me off with unhelpful rhetoric.

I'm really trying to understand this statement. Yes, we are commanded to love, but you mentioned feeling an unloved environment which is an emotion and can be subjective to the context of the situation. I was trying to help you my friend. One is an action and one is a emotion. The reason why the word "feel" loved was mentioned was because of your previous wording of not feeling a loving environment. Which again can be subjective since we don't know each others hearts. "I understand that it can be difficult to feel loving all the time" is not correct English that is why I had no idea what you were on about. Secondly, you are being highly deflective. My reference to feelings does not imply the absence of objective realities. You are suggesting the blame might be with the victim's perceptions rather than asking for examples. Feelings are affected by abuse. Is this how you would respond to someone experiencing more severe domestic abuse?

Matt, Let's run this through: I've been running message boards for 30+ years, and countless times people have posted all over the internet their beliefs and when people don't listen, they are deemed unloving. Are you assuming the same of me? I hope that I have already made my point that this is not the case. Please re-read what you quoted me in. I mentioned 30+ years and used the pronoun "they". You've been here about a week and you are singular. I mentioned what I've seen in 30+ years of running dozens of forums. Just informing you about people and being "unloving" when defining Scripture. I understood that. However, considering the context of this forum is based on me also “deem[ing] people unloving,” why else would you tell me that except to suggest I have fallen into the same trap “when people don’t listen”? Hence I asked a question?

Your approach has its time and place, but as it stands it is instrumental in allowing an environment of ongoing abuse. Paul, James, and others spoke up on these issues, and Proverbs exhorts us to do the same. You might not realize it but the approach you keep putting forward deflects doing accordingly and is therefore not always Christlike. I've responded to you on your approach elsewhere. It is too limited and it fosters abuse. Unintentionally of course.

...that being said, I wonder about and question your motivation, which is only natural considering the way you entered OnlineBaptist.com. I have already answered about my motivation. Is my motivation an excuse for unChristlikeness? Or was that just a red herring? Your oft attempts to skirt the rules though others had tried to keep you on track, and then having to be told by moderators several times to cease and desist certain actions. This, too, I have explained, and yet the accusation persists. You are judging me by assuming my motive was to "skirt the rules." It wasn't intentional. I am highly respectful of protocol and have always been willing to amend my ways. if you've been in ministry for that long of a period of time you would have developed a thicker skin and would have stopped showing the "victim" mentality which seems to be showing again in this post....unless, of course, I'm reading you wrong. Should a thick skin be a prerequisite to the forum? I wonder how many have been chased away from here? Furthermore, you are casting doubt on my motive for this thread, or are you deflecting from your abuse by blaming the victim? Remember, you aren't a Baptist, and this IS a Baptist board. That being said, @PastorMatt has allowed many people who aren't Baptist to be here. I don't think anyone objects to that. They do, however, object to unethical and unbiblical interpretations of scripture to fit one's own ideology. I know my place and appreciate the forum and I don't believe anything I have presented is "unethical and unbiblical." Regardless, it remains incumbent on those who have other interpretations to interact in love. May I make an honest suggestion here? You might want to go back over your OP and try to act accordingly before admonishing others to do so. I think they call that trying to tell others how to live while the beam in their own eye is blocking the view. Thank you. But I wrote it because several people needed to hear it. To be honest, Robert, I have nothing personal against you, and I never will. Your posting here has allowed many to start making their stands known, and their defense of the Bible a priority. That's always a good thing, since all have to study to come to the defense of scripture. That is exactly what I want and might be the best thing I have read since joining. I hope you have a great day, and that the Lord will use you to lead others to him. By the way, I don't recall you mentioning in any of your postings how many people you've witnessed to about the Lord Jesus Christ, or even how many you've possibly led to him. I think all here would be interested in knowing more about your approach to presenting Christ. The forums I have mostly been on have focused on other topics. My teaching is invariably evangelistic, but not here as I would be preaching to the choir. I try and take every opportunity to share the gospel, but have no idea of the results. Perhaps I will post some of my evangelistic posts on another forum. Btw, I went to retrieve something to attach but see that it needs to be made KJVO friendly.

Just because someone disagrees with you/us does not make them/us unloving. I wholeheartedly agree. I have been a teacher in the body of Christ for many years. I know the positions of most denominations on several topics and was never under any illusion that I was going to get agreement here. Knowing the nature of man, I even expect fleshly retaliation. I don't mind good robust interactions at all and have enjoyed the occasions that happened. But the treatment I have received from several quarters is way below par for the mature Christians it came from, if indeed they are. The best way to show love is show love and not just tell others how to love. I agree, nevertheless, as you've indicated to tell is also biblical. I'm having a hard time understanding the point of this post when from what I've read it seems the passion was the same on both sides. Passion is one thing. Rudeness and being constantly judgmental are altogether another. I've been running message boards for 30+ years, and countless times people have posted all over the internet their beliefs and when people don't listen, they are deemed unloving. Are you assuming the same of me? I hope that I have already made my point that this is not the case. God has taught me that since I'm a flawed individual, that many times I just need to sit back and just listen to others instead of talking...even when I believe I'm right. I'm after pleasing God, not man. Sitting back has its place but it's not the advice (or only advice) for the issue at hand. This is about unChristlikeness that is shamefully lacking from significant members on this forum. Even unbelievers conduct themselves better than what I have seen here. I wonder how many are kept from interacting here because they are treated badly. I know many who would not venture to continue if they were treated as I have been. And, what of the Spirit whom we can so easily quench? I understand that it can be difficult to feel loving all the time, but I believe that with effort and communication, we can work towards building a stronger and more loving relationship with each other. What does, "I understand that it can be difficult to feel loving all the time" mean? We are commanded to love regardless of our feelings.

Jesus often answered a question with a question? Do you also judge His motives as you do mine? And, tell me, were the "ROLLING EYES" led by the Spirit? Maybe you want to read my post again on better behavior on the forum?

The following was originally meant for you, but I felt compelled to be gracious and approach this issue more holistically by starting a new thread where we can all help one another interact more lovingly. You indicated your position there, so here it is for all to see: You justified your judging, saying, "In a discussion forum, ALL comments are judged." The Bible distinguishes between two forms of judging. I was referring to you being in sin by your attitude and intent. You assumed the worst and wanted to put me in my place. May I remind you, myself, and all who are involved here we're always in God's presence, even "[i]n a discussion forum." You added, "Just as you judged me as possibly presuming." You'll notice I asked a question. This can help prevent sinful judging. Though, I admit, my question was probably said somewhat rhetorically as you'd already indicated in the short comment what spirit you were in by assuming the worst of me. If it was rhetorical, it was justifiably used to call you out. More shocking, however, was your rude and ungracious tone when you said, "Oh, knock off the whining about being judged." Your behavior is not uncommon on this forum, where bullying is prevalent... You've read the rest.

I care nothing for man's boards, only the truth in God's word. Please, tell me, according to Dispensationalism how many chapters of Revelation are directly applicable to Church?

Online Baptist has been one of the most unloving environments I've ever experienced in my 26 years of Christian ministry, which is sad, especially since Jesus said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (John 13:35). I, too, am far from perfect, but know we can do so much better. Here are some thoughts on how we can improve. Be Aware of God’s Presence Be mindful that we're always in God's presence, even in a discussion forum. "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (1 Peter 1:17). "But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works" (Psalm 73:28). Avoid Toxic Rhetoric Rude and ungracious words are unChristlike. These often manifest when emotions are triggered and in retaliation. They are sometimes used as a form of bullying, especially when this gets condoned or overlooked by the group. "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Tim. 2:24-25). "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger" (Prov. 15:1). Avoid Being Judgmental The Bible distinguishes between two forms of judging. They are distinguishable by one's attitude and intent. Assuming the worst and wanting to put the other person in their place is sinful. "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things" (Rom. 2:1). Asking a question with an open heart prevents sinful judging and fosters loving dialogue. Be Teachable We're all disciples who only see in part. Foster a desire to learn rather than be right. Together, we can help each other see so much more. "Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end" (Prov. 19:20). Include God When you feel incensed by someone's point, or even their apparent toxicity, avoid sinning by being prayerful and allowing God's Spirit to fill you with his love and wisdom. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16). This may lead to remaining silent, returning a kind answer, or rebuking someone, but at least it will be done with the intent to lovingly help rather than satisfy one's fleshly pride. Final Exhortation "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers" (Eph. 4:29). God's word is full of advice. Do you have any to add along with thoughts of your own?

I did not say never. "I said I'd prefer not to . . . " There are several instances of the Lord changing His mind.

I said “I would prefer to not add any more of my opinions to this thread.” Nevertheless, I am prompted to respond to the long comment filled with accusations that DaveW brought against me and have added relevant material. DaveW wrote, I rarely post now but this has me incensed. Being incensed is a natural response when our religious views get stepped on and especially if we have been hurt in an area. However, it’s not very productive for a discussion, especially since we all see through a glass dimly. “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known” (1 Cor. 13:12). It also moves us outside of the spirit with which we are to handle opposition. “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth” (2 Tim. 2:24-25). . . . unless there is biblical evidence against my statements there is no reason for me to respond . . . I could similarly argue that unless there is clear biblical evidence that a zygote is an entire human being (i.e., human life with a soul included), I will not respond either. The truth is we do not know how or when a soul is given/activated. I have given biblical evidence of a possible template having been revealed that suggests a two-stage process. First thing to note is that this man has been told to use KJV as it is this site’s rule to do so. He has been informed of this officially by at least one Mod, so this is a deliberate and knowing breach of forum rules, showing that he has no respect for the forum rules or the mods. Firstly, “this man” is a brother. That tone is condescending. It smacks of the same spirit that accused Jesus, referring to Him as, “This fellow” (Matt. 12:24, 26:61). Secondly, I never intentionally violated the rules. The other versions were part of work I quoted. I saw myself quoting material as one would other outside material or commentaries. I am very new here and had no idea that wouldn’t fly. I was never intentionally trying to get away with anything. And it is interesting that he not only uses the very rare situations of “incest, rape” but then extends it to the far more common “unwanted pregnancies”. Firstly, calling rape and incest rare situations appears to diminish the magnitude of those situations and the need to be able to help people in them. Secondly, it is a fallacy to say pregnancy through rape and incest is rare in the way you do. “Rare” in a huge population can still account for many people. “Recent estimates suggest that rape conception happens between 25,000 and 32,000 times each year in the U.S.” - Pregnancy from rape. “Almost 3 million women in the U.S. experienced RRP during their lifetime” - Understanding Pregnancy Resulting from Rape in the United States. Furthermore, “. . . the prevalence of rape-related pregnancies is difficult to capture because it's one of the most underreported crimes in the country. About 7 of 10 sexual assaults go unreported, according to the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network” - How many young girls get pregnant by rape isn't known, experts say. But the health risks are clear. As for incest, “11% of pregnant adolescents reported becoming pregnant as a result of sexual assault, mostly incest . . . Boyer, Debra, and David Fine. Sexual Abuse as a Factor in Adolescent Pregnancy and Child Maltreatment. 24 Family Planning Perspectives (Jan. 1992)” - Incest Aware. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7 KJV).” First instance is the original special creation of the first man, Adam, not the natural birth process . . . It is simply not relevant to the argument. Adam is the first construct and, therefore, the account is relevant for consideration. The two stage process may well be replicated within his offspring, in the womb of a mother. "So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army" (Ezek. 37:7-10 KJV) This also is in no way speaking of the natural and normal way of birth. This is a miraculous re-formation of people – if this man’s theory is correct then we also MUST accept that the way [sic] a body is formed follows every aspect of this account. That means that a baby forms in this order – the bones first, then the sinews, then the flesh, and then the skin forms over it, and ONLY then the breath comes upon that child FROM THE FOUR WINDS……. This is a reconstruct that may reveal a delay in the onset of the soul in the womb. The reason for the physical process can be explained this way: “’The sequence involving bones, sinews, flesh, and skin reflects an understanding of anatomy available to anyone who had witnessed the slaughter of an animal; it also reverses the decomposition process.’ (Block)” The breath of life came subsequently, as at creation. “’The second action was tantamount to praying, as Ezekiel besought the Spirit of God to effect the miracle of re-creation, to breathe into man’s nostrils the breath of life (cf. Genesis 2:7). This time the effect was devastating. What preaching by itself failed to achieve, prayer made a reality.’ (Taylor)” - EZEKIEL 37 – LIFE TO DRY BONES AND UNITY TO GOD’S PEOPLE. As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. Where does this in any way indicate a “Two stage human formation” – if anything it indicates that the spirit is not a part of the physical formation of a person, but it doesn’t indicate in any way that such formation is done in two separate stages. I don’t understand what you mean by, “if anything it indicates that the spirit is not a part of the physical formation of a person,” as this seems to contradict your position. My input on Ecclesiastes 11:5 was previously completed work that already included references to the ESV, NAB, and NRSV. I was told that I may not include the passages, so I gave the KJV and two commentaries instead. I then said “Some commentaries [sic] on this verse suggest the possibility of a two-phase process in human formation.” Note that I used the term “possibility.” I can see how what I said can be ambiguous. To be clear, I was not intimating that the commentators were saying anything one way or another. I was simply recognizing that the commentaries left the door open to the possibility. . . . “ensoulment” (not a biblical term by the way) . . . Neither is the Trinity. . . . as far as I can see has a soul as soon as it is created. Here we come to the truth of the matter. No one really knows. By faith you have taken a position from your reading (and hopefully deep study) of Scripture, and so have I. There is no verse that this man has shown that would indicate otherwise . . . If anything, considering what I have presented, the burden of proof lies more with you to show that a zygote is fully human (i.e., a human life with a soul). I know neither of us can prove it one way or another. I am just not so certain we should be foisting our views onto a nation based on the standpoint, “as far as I can see . . . “ “Furthermore, “the 1 in 2 loss of zygotes, spontaneous abortions, and the human response to them, may corroborate that a gap exists between conception and personhood” (Preface – Abortion and the Bible: Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right?).” My wife and I have suffered 5 miscarriages, and to call them spontaneous abortions, whilst medically correct, shows that he has no compassion for those who have suffered such. I am deeply sorry for what you and your wife experienced, however, I can assure you that my words aren’t conveying the sentiment you suppose. So this one instance of a “human response to the loss of a zygote” disproves emphatically your last paragraph. It seems that you misunderstand. "The zygote phase is brief, lasting only about four days” - What Is a Zygote?

Thanks, guys for the interaction. I'm signing myself off from this thread too. Your brother in Christ, Rob

That's good to know because that is what "Let his days be few" means. Really?

Hi Jim, Your message came in as I was signing myself off from this thread. Let me just say that I come from a similar belief and sentiment to yours so I understand you. I have considered Jeremiah 1:5. Here are my thoughts: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Notes: • This verse speaks of God having intimate knowledge of Jeremiah before he existed. • It also speaks of appointing Jeremiah as a prophet before he was born. • The term “formed” is the same root word used to describe the forming of Adam before God breathed into his nostrils and he became “a living soul” (Gen. 2:7). • The verse indicates a time in the womb, but does not indicate the onset of personhood. • This verse initially speaks to the idea of the person before personhood. • “Before I formed thee” could refer to an initial physical phase before the soul becomes manifest. • “before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations,” may concern a subsequent phase in the womb when the soul has become manifest and able to interact. If you respond, I will read it, but I am stopping with this thread. I hope you understand. God bless, Rob

I have given what I have thought through in order to be helpful, clear, and thorough. I think that generally speaking, people may have different responses depending on when the loss occurs. I think a late miscarriage would be far more painful for most to bear than say a very early spontaneous abortion. With a late miscarriage, many people would speak of the loss of a baby. In the case of a very early spontaneous abortion, they may not. Again, as sad as it is, I don't believe the 1 in 2 zygotes that are only days old and constantly being lost are human beings yet. I would prefer to not add any more of my opinions to this thread anymore. Thank you to all for the discussion. There are many more Scriptures relevant to the topic. As most of you know, many prove human beings begin in the womb. We've just scratched the surface. "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend" (Prov. 27:17). Love you all, Rob