Music that pleases the flesh is ok . . . But what about other forms of entertainment?

[Mrs Smith]

Okay, let me start by saying that I do not listen to worldly music, nor do I approve of it (rock, soft rock, country, rap, hip-hop, r&b, etc). However, I won't lie, and I will admit that the whole "good music, bad music" really, really confuses me. And I have a hard time explaining my stance to friends and family, which leaves me feeling very silly. The only thing I can say for certain, is that "God gave me a conviction to stay away from that music." Which is a good reason!! But at the same time, how do you explain it to someone who doesn't understand?

One arguement which I always seem to hear/read, is that worldly music pleases the flesh. It's all about the flesh. Well, what does that mean? Doesn't worldly movies please our flesh? Don't wordly movies make us happy, drive us to tears, and make us feel romantic at times (come on ladies, you know what I'm talking about!)? Does that mean that any entertainment that is not God-centered is sinful?

I really want to make a stance with music, especially now that I am a mother. But it's hard to fight off my own family who do not hold my same convictions. They are saved Christians (most of them) and they don't listen to worldly music, but if they do happen to hear a familiar worldly song, they will take pleasure in listening to it for the moment. Then when I calmly and politely pick up my son and go for a walk (aka, take him out of the situation), I can tell they want to say, "Oh, give me a break!" or "What's wrong with this song?"

Can anyone offer words of advice?

[Mrs Smith]

Sorry, I messed up the title of the question! It's suppose to say,
"Music that pleases the flesh is sinful . . ."

[Annie]

Okay, let me start by saying that I do not listen to worldly music, nor do I approve of it (rock, soft rock, country, rap, hip-hop, r&b, etc). However, I won't lie, and I will admit that the whole "good music, bad music" really, really confuses me. And I have a hard time explaining my stance to friends and family, which leaves me feeling very silly. The only thing I can say for certain, is that "God gave me a conviction to stay away from that music." Which is a good reason!! But at the same time, how do you explain it to someone who doesn't understand?

One arguement which I always seem to hear/read, is that worldly music pleases the flesh. It's all about the flesh. Well, what does that mean? Doesn't worldly movies please our flesh? Don't wordly movies make us happy, drive us to tears, and make us feel romantic at times (come on ladies, you know what I'm talking about!)? Does that mean that any entertainment that is not God-centered is sinful?

I Jn. 2:15 defines worldliness as "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life." Anything which glorifies, justifies, or encourages these lusts in our heart can be called worldly, and should be avoided. I wouldn't call a movie "worldly" just because it touches me emotionally, or has an interesting plot or happy ending.

I really want to make a stance with music, especially now that I am a mother. But it's hard to fight off my own family who do not hold my same convictions. They are saved Christians (most of them) and they don't listen to worldly music, but if they do happen to hear a familiar worldly song, they will take pleasure in listening to it for the moment. Then when I calmly and politely pick up my son and go for a walk (aka, take him out of the situation), I can tell they want to say, "Oh, give me a break!" or "What's wrong with this song?"

Tifa, I totally understand what you're talking about. I have a wonderful, supportive, Christian extended family...who doesn't always understand why dh and I make certain choices for our family. Over the years, we've been able to strike a good balance between not offending the extended family, yet sticking to our guns when it comes to choices we've made for our kids. If we ever do have to "make an exit," which is rare, I try to manage it unOBtrusively and inoffensively; I don't try to make a point, or make a big deal of it. The nice thing about my family is that there are now so many small kids around that everyone's tuned in to the fact that protection is necessary. Something my dh and I had to decide, case by case, in the earlier years, was if the exposure was bad enough to merit risking offense by leaving. IOW, was what was going on (music, viewing, etc.) really going to affect our child adversely, since she didn't at all get a steady diet of that music/viewing, and would most likely forget all about it? (Our fam lives 900 miles away, so we aren't even with them that much.) Another thing we've done is just to communicate directly to Mom and Dad (maybe after the whole situation is over) that we're not sure we liked what happened, because blah blah blah, and we'd really appreciate their thoughts on the matter, and their effort to prevent the same kind of thing from happening again. They're great; even if they don't understand or agree, they almost always say how glad they are that we're being careful to raise our kids in God's ways, and don't mind at all deferring to our wishes. Sometimes, there are heated discussions (after the kids have gone to bed), but again, these always end with the parents and siblings agreeing that individual parents should have the right to protect their children, and that the fam needs to support those decisions.

Anyway...just some random thoughts, as usual.

[trc123]

The nice thing about being an adult Christian is you may have your own convictions and you don't have to justify them to anyone outside of God. As long as you live by the Word, by the Spirit and take God's direction; no discussion is necessary unless you choose to have the discussion. Be content in the knowledge you are following God and rest in the peace that passes all understanding.

[HappyChristian]

The nice thing about being an adult Christian is you may have your own convictions and you don't have to justify them to anyone outside of God. As long as you live by the Word, by the Spirit and take God's direction; no discussion is necessary unless you choose to have the discussion. Be content in the knowledge you are following God and rest in the peace that passes all understanding.

tifa - one thing that many people either don't realize or won't admit is that ALL music can appeal to the flesh. Even the person who only listens to "good" gospel music, if they were honest, would have to say that the music appeals to their flesh. If it's pleasing to the ear, it appeals to the flesh. If you feel your toe starting to tap in rhythm, it is appealing to the flesh (but that doesn't make it wrong!!).

If the voice that is singing isn't pleasing to my ear, I can't listen to it with much pleasure, even if the words are excellent...that's because it isn't pleasing to my flesh.

BUT! Music can (and should) be pleasing to the spirit, too. Most of the music our church plays pleases both my flesh and my spirit.

Some secular music even does that! I love most classical music - it pleases my flesh to listen to, and it pleases my spirit. No, it may not have words that come from the Bible, but God made music, and there is secular music that can uplift our spirits.

There's a lot of music that is associated with what we could call the seamier side of life. Annie put it well when she said:

Anything which glorifies, justifies, or encourages these lusts in our heart can be called worldly, and should be avoided.

If you and your hubby have made decisions about the kind of music your family will listen to, stick to your decision. If music that comes on makes you uncomfortable to the point where you feel you have to remove your son, do so with graciousness.

[Annie]

tifa - one thing that many people either don't realize or won't admit is that ALL music can appeal to the flesh.

Happy, I've never heard anyone say this before. What is your definition of "the flesh"? Is it based on the NT definition of "the flesh"? Paul says that "the flesh" lusteth against "the spirit," and "the spirit" against "the flesh." He says that "in my flesh dwelleth NO good thing." Here are some other verses I pulled out of Strong's online concordance:

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus , who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (8:4 says the same thing.)

Rom. 8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

verse 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

verse 13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

9:8: That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of promise are counted for the seed.

13:14: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh...

These verses (and many more that I didn't post) seem to indicate that "the flesh" (whatever that means) is at odds with "the Spirit," and that "fleshly deeds" cannot please God.

Considering the meaning of "the flesh" in the NT, I would have to say that enjoyment of something, or ordinate pleasure in something (like bluegrass music, or whatever else) is not the same as "pleasing the flesh," or "indulging the flesh." The "fleshly" part of us is that part which is set against God...the remnant of our sinful nature which we have to battle and mortify every minute of every day.

Even the person who only listens to "good" gospel music, if they were honest, would have to say that the music appeals to their flesh. If it's pleasing to the ear, it appeals to the flesh. If you feel your toe starting to tap in rhythm, it is appealing to the flesh (but that doesn't make it wrong!!).

Again, I have to wonder about your distinction here. I can enjoy something without it appealing to the fleshly part of me. I'm honestly not trying to pick at you here. I think I agree with what you're saying (that we can enjoy music/movies/God's good and creative gifts to us without sinning).

BTW, IMO, a lot of Southern gospel music is more fleshly (in the biblical sense) than spiritual. Our family avoids it for this reason.

BUT! Music can (and should) be pleasing to the spirit, too. Most of the music our church plays pleases both my flesh and my spirit.

Considering Paul's words once again, I don't think it is possible to please both "flesh" and "spirit." Enjoying music is IMO not the same as pleasing my flesh.

[HappyChristian]

Happy, I've never heard anyone say this before. What is your definition of "the flesh"? Is it based on the NT definition of "the flesh"? Paul says that "the flesh" lusteth against "the spirit," and "the spirit" against "the flesh." He says that "in my flesh dwelleth NO good thing." Here are some other verses I pulled out of Strong's online concordance:

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus , who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (8:4 says the same thing.)

Rom. 8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

verse 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

verse 13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

9:8: That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of promise are counted for the seed.

13:14: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh...

These verses (and many more that I didn't post) seem to indicate that "the flesh" (whatever that means) is at odds with "the Spirit," and that "fleshly deeds" cannot please God.

Considering the meaning of "the flesh" in the NT, I would have to say that enjoyment of something, or ordinate pleasure in something (like bluegrass music, or whatever else) is not the same as "pleasing the flesh," or "indulging the flesh." The "fleshly" part of us is that part which is set against God...the remnant of our sinful nature which we have to battle and mortify every minute of every day.



Again, I have to wonder about your distinction here. I can enjoy something without it appealing to the fleshly part of me. I'm honestly not trying to pick at you here. I think I agree with what you're saying (that we can enjoy music/movies/God's good and creative gifts to us without sinning).

BTW, IMO, a lot of Southern gospel music is more fleshly (in the biblical sense) than spiritual. Our family avoids it for this reason.


Considering Paul's words once again, I don't think it is possible to please both "flesh" and "spirit." Enjoying music is IMO not the same as pleasing my flesh.

My usage of the term "flesh" is simply as I stated in my comment about something being pleasing to my ear. If I enjoy hearing it, it's pleasing to my flesh - my body. If I don't like the sound of the singer, it isn't pleasing to my flesh - my body, my ear. I in no way meant or indicated that I was meaning that "flesh" as the Bible indicates is not pleasing to God - and I really would have thought my quoting you as regards "lusts" would have underlined that. I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

Really, things that we enjoy do please our flesh. Good food pleases our tongue - that is part of our flesh, our body.

Again, I am not talking about that "flesh" that deals with lusts and giving in to them. Music is physically appealing - we listen to it with our ears. No-one listens to music that doesn't appeal to their ears. And ears are part of the body. Is that a bit more clear? Hope so.

(and please know that I in no way was advocating "indulging the flesh." Pleasing the ear or the palate or the eye (with good art) does not necessarily mean indulging, but it is done with our bodies, our flesh - see what I mean?)

[ptwild]

Happy: I hear you! I love Jazz. It's about the only thing I listen to outside of Church and none of it has a single lyric in it. It relaxes me and puts me in a good mood. I don't see how that "appeals to my flesh."

[Annie]

Thanks for clarifying, LuAnne. I guess the thing about your post that raised the red flag was the very first thing you said:

tifa - one thing that many people either don't realize or won't admit is that ALL music can appeal to the flesh.

This statement appeared to be a direct response to this concern of Tifa's:

One arguement which I always seem to hear/read, is that worldly music pleases the flesh. It's all about the flesh. Well, what does that mean? Doesn't worldly movies please our flesh? Don't wordly movies make us happy, drive us to tears, and make us feel romantic at times (come on ladies, you know what I'm talking about!)? Does that mean that any entertainment that is not God-centered is sinful?

So, it looked like Tifa was using "the flesh" in the biblical way, to mean "worldly." So, IMO, it's a bit misleading/confusing to say that "all music can appeal to the flesh" (in the way Tifa was using the term: worldly), when really you were using the term in a different way. That's all I was saying.

Glad to know we agree on this.

[Covenanter]

Looks as if we should distinguish between "the flesh" (which has a negative connotation) & the senses & emotions, which are capable of positive & negative response.

If I sing a lullaby to my grandchildren, it need not be profound, or Biblical. Jesus allowed the children to play dances & dirges.

Interestingly, musical instruments were invented by Jubal, in the line of Cain. That does not stop them being taken over & used for the worship of God. (Ps 92, 150)

Songs can be very powerful, for good or evil, a call to war or peace. Is "Marching through Georgia" better then "With God on our side?" (You needn't answer that question.)

Songs have a message. How do we react? Hopefully the baby sleeps!

[Annie]

Looks as if we should distinguish between "the flesh" (which has a negative connotation) & the senses & emotions, which are capable of positive & negative response.

You're right. I think we're all agreed that there's a difference between these things. We are not to feed our flesh, but we are to feed beautiful things to our senses, so that we can fulfill Phil. 4:8 ("think on these things").

If I sing a lullaby to my grandchildren, it need not be profound, or Biblical. Jesus allowed the children to play dances & dirges.

Interestingly, musical instruments were invented by Jubal, in the line of Cain. That does not stop them being taken over & used for the worship of God. (Ps 92, 150)

Right. God, not man, is the creator of music. He created sound vibrations, which enable difference pitches and tambres. Unfortunately, music, along with the rest of creation, has been corrupted. It can be used in a fleshly way for fleshly ends.

Songs have a message. How do we react? Hopefully the baby sleeps!

LOL--You're right on here!

[dwayner79]

The nice thing about being an adult Christian is you may have your own convictions and you don't have to justify them to anyone outside of God. As long as you live by the Word, by the Spirit and take God's direction; no discussion is necessary unless you choose to have the discussion. Be content in the knowledge you are following God and rest in the peace that passes all understanding.

nice!

[Jerry]

tifa - one thing that many people either don't realize or won't admit is that ALL music can appeal to the flesh. Even the person who only listens to "good" gospel music, if they were honest, would have to say that the music appeals to their flesh. If it's pleasing to the ear, it appeals to the flesh. If you feel your toe starting to tap in rhythm, it is appealing to the flesh (but that doesn't make it wrong!!).

If the voice that is singing isn't pleasing to my ear, I can't listen to it with much pleasure, even if the words are excellent...that's because it isn't pleasing to my flesh.

When the Bible speaks about something being pleasing to the flesh, it is talking about your fleshly, carnal nature - and it is always wrong to give in to things that please you in a sinful manner (that's what the Bible teaches, regardless of our personal preferences).

Enjoying godly music is not fleshly - that would be a contradiction in terms.

[HappyChristian]

When the Bible speaks about something being pleasing to the flesh, it is talking about your fleshly, carnal nature - and it is always wrong to give in to things that please you in a sinful manner (that's what the Bible teaches, regardless of our personal preferences).

Enjoying godly music is not fleshly - that would be a contradiction in terms.

I never said it was fleshly - never even indicated carnality, Jerry. And I explained what I meant in a later post. When I used the word flesh, I was talking about our bodies -our senses. When you (or anyone) enjoy godly music, you are enjoying it via your ears, which are on your body.

[Jerry]

Sorry, I responded before I had read the whole thread. BUT enjoying music with your body/senses is not fleshly. When you use that term you are confusing things. I believe it is better to consistently use the word in a Biblical sense.