Members heartstrings Posted November 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2009 Ok, fair enough. We'll suppose he was traversing Earth's surface. So, what part of the passage means that Satan left planet earth and traveled to Heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted November 6, 2009 Members Share Posted November 6, 2009 I don't know what thread to post this in, Heartstring has a bunch of threads on this subject. In reference to who the sons of God were in JOB 1-2 and what kind of meeting was going on, I think it was like this: 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. A meeting of the good and bad angels before the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Madeline Posted November 8, 2009 Members Share Posted November 8, 2009 The Hebrew verb is /shut/, and it means "to go/roam/rove quickly/eagerly". In other words, it does not really say or imply "walking" on one's feet. I would suppose the devil flies from place to place. And as to 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 and JOB 1-2...I definitely see a parallel between the two Love, Madeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2009 Madeline, he King James Bible says "walking". There is a big difference between "walking" and "flying". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2009 I don't know what thread to post this in, Heartstring has a bunch of threads on this subject. In reference to who the sons of God were in JOB 1-2 and what kind of meeting was going on, I think it was like this: 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. A meeting of the good and bad angels before the Lord. Even Micaiah lied to Ahab, so I don't know. The characters in this account are the "host of heaven" and " a spirit". It doesn't say "sons of God", "angel", "satan" or even "a devil". "Sons of God" are still defined as believers, in your KIng James Bible. No other direct definition is given...not one. So I still suspect that the JOB 1 and 2 account took place on earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1Timothy115 Posted November 12, 2009 Members Share Posted November 12, 2009 I might add that, Satan does OBserve us and knows our usual response to situations. He knows what appeals to our flesh as individuals from watching our response to his temptations. heartstrings, great post and interesting topic, this will would make a good Bible devotional study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted November 12, 2009 Members Share Posted November 12, 2009 Curious: do you think Zechariah chapters 1:8-11 and 6:1-8 are referring to men or angels, and why? Both passages use similar language about walking to and fro in the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Curious: do you think Zechariah chapters 1:8-11 and 6:1-8 are referring to men or angels, and why? Not enough information for me to say. The only thing I see is "the four spirits of the heavens". Are angels the only beings in Heaven? Both passages use similar language about walking to and fro in the earth. What is your point here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Angels or men - the Bible doesn't teach there is a third option. What is my point? I figure the best way to understand some unclear passages in JOB would be to do a study in other passages where similar language or characters are in view. Based on a look through the whole book of Zechariah, I would say these are angels and not men. Wondering if you agree? If so, why would it be angels in Zechariah doing something but men in JOB when the same language is used of both? Seems to me that JOB, Zechariah and that passage in 2nd Chronicles are all describing the same type of thing: ie. Angels (whether good or bad) walking around on the earth, then reporting to the Lord. Do I have anything to prove with this? Nothing beyond the desire to compare Scripture with Scripture. I was just reading Zechariah and noticed the possible parralel here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Madeline Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Madeline, he King James Bible says "walking". There is a big difference between "walking" and "flying". The confusion is over which verb we are talking about in JOB 1:7. I was talking about the first verb Satan uses, which the KJV translates "going to and fro". Clearly, this does not require ambulating by foot. That verb, /shut/, is used for other types of locomotion such as, e.g., swimming (Isaiah 25:11) or rowing (Jonah 1:13). So the type of locomotion is determined by the context. I would suppose that the "going to and fro" (/shut/) means rapid deployment from one geographic area to another (by flying, as angels are wont to do), and that the "walking", KJV's translation for the second verb, may mean more intensive scouting of specific areas. However, even this second verb is used of general locomotion (this is the /hithpael/ stem of the verb /halak/). For example, it can be used of the flight of arrows and lightning (Ps.77:17), and also of the flow of water (Ps.58:7). Now we wouldn't be correct to say that God's arrows "walked" or that His lighting "walked" or that the wicked vanish like water "walks", would we? These verbs are general and the specific type of locomotion depends upon the context of who and what is moving. Angels fly. The devil doesn't walk to heaven (or from point A to point B on earth for that matter either). So "roaming" and "going to and fro" are fine translations, but they certainly do not rule out the devil's flying from place to place. Love, Madeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 1 Peter5: 8 Be sOBer, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Satan was with Jesus and his disciples. On another occasion he came to tempt Jesus and then left. He tempted Annanias and Sapphira to lie to the Holy Ghost. When you go into your church to worship God with other Christians, Satan comes along too. 1. Sons of God (defined as believers) 2. came to present themselves (worship, sacrifice, pray etc.) 3. before the Lord (like the Bible says Abraham did) 4. and Satan came also among them (Like he did with Jesus and the disciples) Why is that so hard ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Because your position is based on guesswork and presumption. Some of us actually want to study out what the Bible says, not what we want it to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 I want to know what the Bible really says; not what men say it says. Care to look up these scriptures? 1 Peter5: 8 Be sOBer, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Satan was with Jesus and his disciples. On another occasion he came to tempt Jesus and then left. He tempted Annanias and Sapphira to lie to the Holy Ghost. When you go into your church to worship God with other Christians, Satan comes along too. 1. Sons of God (defined as believers)John 1:12, Acts 2:17, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galations 4:6, 1 John 3:1,2 2. came to present themselves (worship, sacrifice, pray etc.) 3. before the Lord (like the Bible says Abraham did) Genesis 18:22. Genesis 19:27, Genesis 27:7, Exodus 6:12 4. and Satan came also among them (Like he did with Jesus and the disciples) Matthew 16:23 Why is that so hard ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Been there, done that. The prOBlem is that you are determined to ride your lame hOBby horse into every thread you can and force it to fit every Bible passage, regardless of context. That's called eisegesis (reading into Scripture what is not there), not exegesis (bringing out what is in each Bible passage). You've defined one of the four uses of the term "son of God" and are determined to force a definition only used in the NT into every other passage dealing with the term, regardless of context or Bible usage of that term. Can't study the Bible like that with you - I would rather rightly divide the Word of Truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted November 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Perhaps you can help a brother out. Can you show me another direct definition of sons of God? And will you take the passage in JOB 1:7 and exegete it for me? Just show me the right way to do it. OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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