When did Jesus say the rapture will happen?

[Saul]

The false belief of pre-trib rapture was first taught in church by a pentacostal woman.

1.)When did Jesus tell His disciples the rapture would happen?Matt.24:29-31;Mark 13:24-27;and Lk.21:25-28
2.)The Bible states repeatedly that His people will go through tribulation but not face the wrath of God.Jn 16:33;Acts 14:22;Rom.5:3;Rom.8:35;Rom.12:12;2Cor.1:4;2Cor.7:4;1Thess3:4;Rev.1:9;Rev.2:9-10 and Rev.7:14
3.)Will Christ's coming in the clouds be a :secret rapture" as the pre-trib rapture teaches? Rev.1:7;1Thess.4:16-17;Mk.14:62;Mk.13:26-27;Mat.24:30-31;Acts 1:9-11; and Lk.21:27-28
4.)The Bible clearly teaches that the "Day of Christ" cannot happen until after the Antichrist is revealed.2Thess 2:1-6
5.)What is the "Day of Christ"?The "day of Christ" is referred to 7 times in the Bible:1Cor. 1:8;1 Cor.5:5;2 Cor.1:14;Phil.1:6;Phil.2:16 and 2Th. 2:2
6.)Jesus' Coming will not be as a thief in the night to those who are saved. 1Th.5:16
7.)Where did Jesus or anyone in the Bible say the rapture would happen before the tribulation?

[Calvary]

You questions have been answered by many over the years, but every now and then another poorly researched critic pops up with the same tired questions of yesterday.

For example, your question as to a secret rapture. I know of no one who teaches that position. In fact having been publickly proclaiming the rapture, I find your question incredulous and insincere.

In addition, Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 find no bearing in the rapture of the church age saints. All of those passages are clearly aimed at Israel, which of course is not the church. Failure to distinguish God's plan for the ages leads to error.

Equating hard times, tribulations and the like with a prophetic event of scripture called the wrath of God or the Time of Jacob's Trouble is hermenuetical suicide. Right division solves your problem.

I'll show you your own contradicting questions. You try to affirm that we somehow teach a secret rapture which of course finds no support in the Bible, yet you then mock a secret rapture position by citing 1 Thes 5, which of course we totally agree with. so how is it that we hold to secret rapture?

Anyways, your ingenious and insincere post disqualifies you as an honest person looking for any real scriptural answers.

Did you read the quote in the thread on the pretrib rapture origins I gave? Did you know that Margret McDonald was not the originator of any pre trib rapture doctrine? Did you know that Paul the Apostle was the first to comfort us with the words of a catching away to be with Christ in the air? Did you ever read 1 Thess. 4?

God bless,

Calvary

[PreacherBen]

Bro. Calvary, I just wanted to say I agree with some of your following statement:

In addition, Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 find no bearing in the rapture of the church age saints. All of those passages are clearly aimed at Israel, which of course is not the church. Failure to distinguish God's plan for the ages leads to error.

Though the main thrust of those passages deal with Israel, Jesus plainly said:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These are the days leading up to the end which will affect the church.

You later said:

Did you know that Margret McDonald was not the originator of any pre trib rapture doctrine? Did you know that Paul the Apostle was the first to comfort us with the words of a catching away to be with Christ in the air? Did you ever read 1 Thess. 4?

Please show us from scripture how I Thess. 4 confirms the pretrib rapture. I do not ask this in insincerity or feigned interest. This topic is very interesting to me and one I think needs deeper examination. The thread on Origins of the Pretrib rapture gave quotes from pre-1800's teachers that were at best, ambiguous.

Example:

2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)

Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.

True, this pastor and scholar taught a rapture theory, it did not, in any way, imply or confirm a pretrib rapture. If you read those quotes, they should be read without the added comments by those trying to wrestle the quotes into a pretrib context. They only indicate the Christians would go out before, as Increase Mather put it, "...the final conflagration."

Bro. Ben

[Calvary]

Hi Ben,

I really don't have the time I would like, I also have no library to avail myself of as I am accustomed to, since I have left the field of Mexico and am currently in San Diego, with a possible trip soon to Guatemala for our 4th church plant, and yes it makes it it a tad difficult to repsond in full.

I did however participate ina debate on this web site some time ago and I would like to cut and paste a section of a response I gave.

Before that, however, I will have to disagree with your statement on the Matthew 24 passage you made. I find no bearing at all on the church having been long since caught up to be with the Lord, be it a pre trib rapture or a post trib rapture. Matthew 24 is clearly dealing with the end, the 2 nd Advent which must not be confused with the coming in the air for His saints. I beleive that failure to distinguish these events has led many to produce a mid trib position and a post trib position. Though I will not elaborate now, I hold to a pre trib rapture of the Body of Christ, a mid trib rapture of the 144,000 and other saints, and then a resurrection to judgement at the end of the trib period, and at last, a final resurrection to rewards and judgment at the end of the Mill. Yes, you read that right. I am convinced that many of the post trib arguments are simply a misplaced timing and a mis identification of the participants on your part. The saints you believe are raptured at the end of the trib, are raptured, but they are not the Body of Christ.

Anyways, some thoughts I had on the previous debate. Apologies for the cut and paste.

One more thing. The pre trib position is defended as a doctrine, not a single statement, much like the Trinity. There is no one verse that says that God is Triune, yet the BIble, taken as a whole and several statements under the direction of conclusory deduction leads us to this truth. The same is true of the pre trib position. So study the doctrine in panorama, not under a myopically.
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Let

[PreacherBen]

Dear Bro. Calvary,
I appreciate your response, I quite enjoyed your study on the error of post tribulation rapture. I would have to say that I agree with almost all of it. I have a problem with the post-trib view because it does away with the promise in scripture:

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

However, many, for some reason mistake the first part of the tribulation period for the very end which we often refer to as the time of Jacob's Trouble, or the wrath of God. The entire tribulation is not going to be a time of wrath. Will it be tribulation? Yes, but then again, Jesus said we would NOT escape tribulation.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

There are too many other verses on the topic, but suffice it to say, the believer is succeptable to tribulation, to teach otherwise would be to ignore scripture, the lessons of church history, and the state of the persecuted church in the world today.

I understand the context of the words of Jesus being mainly (but not completely) aimed at Israel,

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

The fig tree, symbolic of Israel, just as the olive tree is. But, we are mysteriously engrafted into the olive tree until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Notice:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is that mystery? Compare it with scripture:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Notice after the blowing of the seventh (last) trump, the mystery of God, the Gentile church, is finished, she is gone. This is consistent with scritpure.

I have posted a makeshift diagram below. It is not perfect, but it states some clarification of what I believe the scritpure teaches. It is meaningless unless you look up the passages (I didn't have enough room on the chart to list all the passages, just their addresses.)

End Times Chart


I'll post more later, I know I missed things.

Bro. Ben

[Calvary]

The name of this thread is a bit misleading. To me at least. I don't beleive that Jesus taught about the rapture as we understand it. So, that being said, I clicked on your "end times" link and read some of it. Not all, but some.


Either way you call it, you posit a mid trib rapture.

I call your attention to the following from the web site. I don't know if it is your work or some other, but nonetheless...

The way we escape the wrath of God is to be raptured out after the seventh (last) trumpet

Rev 14:14

[LindaR]

The Rapture is imminent...it can come at any time. In John 14:1-3, Jesus told His disciples:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (John 14:1)

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3)

Jesus never said when the rapture would happen, but He did promise that He would come again and receive us (the saved) unto Himself. We are to be ready because the Lord can come at any time. Maranatha!

[PreacherBen]

Thanks Bro. Calvary,

I do not find the Rev. 14 passage refering to the gathering of the wheat with a sickle to be inconsistent with the gathering of the Christians. Notice:

Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

It is clear, we are the wheat to be gathered by the reapers "at the harvest."

I will research the verses (Ezekiel 20:33-44; Jeremiah 50:19,20; Michah 7:14) I appreciate your input. I in no way want to appear to have all the answers, but I DO want to have all the right answers one can get.

And Sister Linda, Amen! I want to be ready for whatever the Lord see fit to let happen when that time comes.

Bro. Ben

[Calvary]

Hi Ben,

I will admit this openly. As a pretty strict dispensationalist, I will always balk at the use of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for church eschatology. It's just my automatic knee jerk reaction.

As you see the church being the wheat, I would not. I would make application to Israel. So in that area, it's not that clear to me as perhaps you find for yourself.

For example, Matt 3 you cite. The inconsistency is that at the rapture of the church, there is no judgment upon the wicked. It [the judgment] follows after a period of time that could last up to 7 years, (as I consider that some of the trib period may have taken place during the Acts period)

Matt. 13 - who are the reapers? At the rapture of the church I find the only angelic involvement is the voice of the archangel. Christ is the reaper at that time as He calls us and we respond to His voice (John 10). In addition, there is no gathering of the wicked at the rapture of the church. In fact, I dare say did you notice that they are gathered first? Brings new meaning to the "one is left and the other taken" passages. If the wicked are gathered first at the coming of Christ, then to be taken would be a negative. We desire however to be taken when He comes for His bride. So consider again the confusion by forcing the rapture of the church in the kingdom gospels. The faulty premises are prone to error b y failure to rightly divide.

IMHO

God bless,

Calvary

[PreacherBen]

I guess that is a Rubikon I eventually crossed from, that is, dispersationalist interpretation. I (being trained in a KJVO, IFB,) bible college, sat under professors who said things like, "Never take any N.T. church doctrine out of the four gospels." Some would extend that also to Hebrews, James, I + II Peter, and I,II, and III John. Being an impressionable young college student, I just took it in. However, later on in my Christian life it dawned on me, "Who is speaking primarily in the four Gospels?" It is Jesus! And I can't count on his words for N.T. doctrine? So, I slowly began the task of asking the Lord to remove any filters I allowed teachers, preachers, and professors, to put on my eyes and let me see only the pureness of scripture.

Let me inject, I am not implying that you have not sought the Lord in the same way, but I see that I can, throught dispensational theology, complete negate the words of Christ, or relegate them to "some other group," or "some other time." If we are not careful, this can result in us putting God in our carefully designed theological box.

In reference to the one verse saying, the tares are gathered first, and etc., I realize there are always going to be timing issues because we have to discern between, is this statement given for literal timing, or is this statement figuratively given to describe the group or event. These are pictures, they are always preceeded by, "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto..." Pictures always have their shortcomings to us who read (not He who gave it.)

I believe some have taken the kingdom topic and made an alternative doctrine out of it thus wrestling the fullness of truth out of the hands of those who read. The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Christ are one and the same, notice:

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I see the kingdom of Christ and God as His sovereign rule and reign in the lives of his followers. Therefore, when we take a verse out of use because it is pertaining to the "kingdom gospel" and not the doctrines of the "N.T. church," we do harm the fulness of Gods truth.

You remarked:

For example, Matt 3 you cite. The inconsistency is that at the rapture of the church, there is no judgment upon the wicked. It [the judgment] follows after a period of time that could last up to 7 years, (as I consider that some of the trib period may have taken place during the Acts period)

It is only inconsistent if one insists that the rapture is at the beginning of the stated 7 year period. And yes, it is possible that the first 3-1/2 years were accomplished somewhere else. You don't have a reference to a rapture starting point of 7 years in the Revelation, (only the assumption of 7 years becasue of Daniel's 70th week.) The Revelation only mention 3-1/2 years. Notice:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
3-1/2 years

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
3-1/2 years

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
3-1/2 years (symbolic perhaps???)

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
A symbolic picture of prewrath rapture??? Perhaps, look what's next

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

When I was first confronted with these verse, I bristled at the prospect that we could actually go "into" some of the tribulation. I cannot say for sure, but I know there are TOO MANY verses that throw real wrenches into the pretrib rapture wheel. We need to study these things out and see. It is too easy to just accept what pastor taught, or so-and-so wrote, but the early church (predominently,) did not teach a pretrib rapture. If there is not one the implications are serious. The current weak state of the church (as we see it all around us,) is not going to fare well in these troubles. I'm afraid that the pretrib rapture has sung to a large part of the professing body...Go to sleep...go to sleep...(you know the lullaby.)

[Calvary]

I guess that is a Rubikon I eventually crossed from, that is, dispersationalist interpretation. I (being trained in a KJVO, IFB,) bible college, sat under professors who said things like, "Never take any N.T. church doctrine out of the four gospels." Some would extend that also to Hebrews, James, I + II Peter, and I,II, and III John. Being an impressionable young college student, I just took it in. However, later on in my Christian life it dawned on me, "Who is speaking primarily in the four Gospels?" It is Jesus! And I can't count on his words for N.T. doctrine? So, I slowly began the task of asking the Lord to remove any filters I allowed teachers, preachers, and professors, to put on my eyes and let me see only the pureness of scripture.

Well, if you could, or better said, should rely upon Jesus for NT church doctrine, then why would He give you another Apostle who said that "his" gospel was not revealed unto him by men. Who said that "his" gospel was not revealed unto the sons of men until it was given to him, [Paul]. A man who said that his gospel was to the Gentiles, the Apostle whose charge was to "complete the word of God".

Hmm.... I read the BIble, it says that Jesus was the minister to the circumcision. Paul was to the uncircumcision.

I didn't just make that stuff up. It's basic Bible. Two distinct groups, two distinct purposes and two distinct messages.

The kingdom isn't the issue as your list of verses don't abrogate any defining terms. I said that the "kingdom gospel" is not the gospel which we preach or recieve. The kingdom gospel speaks to the content and elements of a gospel, not the kingdom. If you really believe there is no difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God, grab a concordance beloved.

Things different are not the same
We have probably run our course.

God bless,

Calvary

[PreacherBen]

Well, if you could, or better said, should rely upon Jesus for NT church doctrine, then why would He give you another Apostle who said that "his" gospel was not revealed unto him by men. Who said that "his" gospel was not revealed unto the sons of men until it was given to him, [Paul]. A man who said that his gospel was to the Gentiles, the Apostle whose charge was to "complete the word of God".

Did Jesus minister to the Gentiles?

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in [their] arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon [their] shoulders.

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

So, Paul was only to the Gentiles? Let's see:

Act 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The fact of the matter is both sought both. But if we are going to justify a theory (dispensationalism) then we have to ignore certain scriptures.

Just my two cents worth on dispensational theology. I personally don't buy it, it is not particualary the only orthodox view.

Bro. Ben

[Calvary]

Did Jesus minister to the Gentiles?

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

You confuse "ministering" with the essence of a message. I never intimated that Jesus did not "minister". I did however say what the BIble clearly teaches, Jesus was sent to Israel primarily with a national message of repentance. Paul was given a special "dispensation" (a good solid Bible word) to the Gentiles which was not afforded to other disciples.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

These passages from Isaiah are not Jesus ministering to anyone. In fact they are talking of the elevated national glory of national Israel which will attract the gentile nations to the Lord. This is the purpose of the Lord's plans with Israel.

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

This again adds nothing to your statements that seem to indicate that the word of God should not be rightly divided. Who is "thee"? It is Israel in fulfillment of the plans of God to raise up that people to be a testimony of the goodness of God.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in [their] arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon [their] shoulders.

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. Exactly my point.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

So, Paul was only to the Gentiles? Let's see:

Act 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.



The fact of the matter is that we weren't discussing whether or not God seeks all men. We were discussing the elements of a message. You have built a straw man and argued against something I niether intimated nor said. I have not ignored any scriptures. I merely heeded them and layed them at the feet of who they were written for.

Just my two cents worth on dispensational theology. I personally don't buy it, it is not particualary the only orthodox view.

Bro. Ben

As I said, we come to a impasse.

God bless.

Calvary