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Help with Pre-Tib Rapture view


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Madeline,
Your question on the other thread is still one to be answered. Away with Margret McDonald, Dr. Fernandez, and all others, what are the Trumps leading up to the "Last Trump"? If the rapture is pre-trib and it is proceeded with the "Last Trump," then what are the other trumps? If I come in first in the race, how could I be considered the last runner? I'm not, I'm the first. If I come in last, well, you understand the, operative word here.........logic. Aslo, Matt. 24, is for the most part refering to Israel, however, the end times will encapulate the church also. Your sermon, 'Pre-trib or Post-trib,' is interesting, but what about "Pre-wrath?" Most offer apples or oranges, but what if it is neither? Early church fathers up to the present have taught such a scenario. Regardless to who started it, pre-trib has only been popularized since the 1800's, especially in the last 40 years.

Ben


As I have stated before...I am a pre-tribber, however, I do have difficulty with many of the pre-trib arguments. This is from personal bible study and listening to apologetics teachers. Here is a sermon that presents good arguments concerning the post-trib view. Now I am not trying to disseminate the post-trib view to anyone on this forum, but I do want to here your interpretations refuting his post-trib position so I can stand firm in my pre-trib position. Thanks in advance! Please listen carefully: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib

Love,
Madeline
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Here is an excerpt of an article by Thomas Ice on "The Last Trump":

Trumpets in Revelation

Some midtribulationist and posttribulationists attempt to equate the " last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15- 18. Revelation 11:15, does not say specifically " last trumpet." Instead, the Revelation passage says " the seventh angel sounded." The seventh trumpet is the seventh in a series of judgments. The seventh trumpet is the last in a series of trumpet judgments but it is not the last judgment in the series, seven more judgments (bowls) follow.

The " last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is singular, referring to one judgment, not a sequence of seven. Ellicott notes, " There are no sufficient grounds for supposing that there is here any reference to the seventh Apocalyptic trumpet (Rev. xi. 15), or to the seventh and last trumpet." [4] Henry Thiessen agrees:

If he had thought of this trumpet as one of seven, he would undoubtedly have said something like the following: " For when the trumpets will be sounded and the time comes for the last one to sound, the dead in Christ shall be raised." At any rate, there is no ground for identifying the " trump" in 1 Cor. 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15. Those in the Revelation introduce fearful judgments upon the world and mankind; this one calls the dead in Christ out of their graves and summons both the ones raised and the believers still living into the Lord' s presence.[5]

If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11. The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.

The Last Trumpet by Thomas Ice

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Again, Paul said "at the LAST TRUMP". A "trump" can mean "a trumpet" if it is a noun or it can me "the sound a trumpet makes" if it is used as a verb. Paul speaks of "the SOUND of the trumpet". Not the sound of the last trumpet or seventh trump. The LAST TRUMP is the LAST SOUND that the particular trumpet he is speaking of makes. It is the only trumpet not the last or seventh trumpet.

As far as Matthew 24 and who it relates to look at the last three verses of Matthew 23. It's all about Israel, not the church.

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The confusion concerning the Pre / Mid / Post and the new Pre-wrath view is a failure to understand the difference between the Church and Israel. When authors misidentify Israel vs. the N.T. Church which then the confusion sets in and you get some poorly studied but often well meaning chap teaching that the church goes into the trib... which of course it doesn't.

Second - the teaching that the pre-trib view originates in 1830 is like saying the doctrine of the rapture started in 1912 .... It is a Bible doctrine and therefore has it's foundation in the authorship of the scriptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture of the church begins with the N.T. but was foreshadowed in Enoch. --

A good set of sermons on the subject are to be found on James Knox's website http://www.inthestreets.org/knox/

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Matthew 24 is speaking prophetically to the nation of Israel. The fact that the apostles are present doesn't change the fact. You have Christ mentioning a temple, the land of Judea, the sabbath and the fig tree. None of that has to do with the church.


Matt. 24: 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
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I've never heard a good argument for a post-trib rapture. The case can't be made for a post-trib rapture without distorting Scripture. Typically, the post-trib rapture is held by those who believe the church inherited the promises to Israel and that Israel has been permanently cast away by God.

I've heard/read good arguments for the pre-trib and even some for the mid-trib rapture but neither have been ironclad. That said, I still lean towards pre-trib.

Even so, the most important thing for us is to be pursuing personal holiness, being about the Lord's work, because as Scripture makes it clear, we don't know and can't know when Christ will return or when any of us will be called home.

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Even so' date=' the most important thing for us is to be pursuing personal holiness, being about the Lord's work, because as Scripture makes it clear, we don't know and can't know when Christ will return or when any of us will be called home.[/quote']

:amen::amen::amen:
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