Marriages between one man and one woman

[dwayner79]

Its very amazing at how many people that post here that defends, supports, homosexual marriages, and how many will not separate from sinners and encourage others to do the same.

We've got people here who do not know basic Bible principles.

Jerry, the last few topic I have discussed with you, you always seem to make these kinds of general statements that do nothing to prove your point, they just attempt to talk down to the people who differ from you.

Noone here that I have read defends or supports homosexual marriage from a biblical point of view. By implying that we "do not know basic Biblical principles" is just silly rhetoric.

Again, there is a difference between thinking Homosexuals are ok in God's eyes, and not expecting our government to legislate morality. If you want to discuss this on a political front, then lets do so, but just calling us biblically unknowledgable doesn't help.

[John81]

Law is the legislating of morality any way you slice it.

If marriage is held up in the tradition view as it has been throughout the history of this country then one morality is upheld. If homosexuals are granted "marriage rights", then a new morality has been adopted. In either case, morality plays a role.

For anyone who is a Bible believing Christian to say they support any legislation that is so obviously unbiblical does call into question that persons understanding of Scripture; or at least their willingness to live by the Word of God.

Christians are to live for God first. They are to be walking in the Spirit in all aspects of their lives, including politics.

[deafnva77]

Jerry, the last few topic I have discussed with you, you always seem to make these kinds of general statements that do nothing to prove your point, they just attempt to talk down to the people who differ from you.

Noone here that I have read defends or supports homosexual marriage from a biblical point of view. By implying that we "do not know basic Biblical principles" is just silly rhetoric.

Again, there is a difference between thinking Homosexuals are ok in God's eyes, and not expecting our government to legislate morality. If you want to discuss this on a political front, then lets do so, but just calling us biblically unknowledgable doesn't help.

He is a pastor, and he speak spiritually. I don't think he is interested in speaking like a politican.

[JerryNumbers]

He is a pastor, and he speak spiritually. I don't think he is interested in speaking like a politican.

Your 100% right, and thanks for saying it.

Some Christians wants to help the cause of the homosexuals, that is help sinners in their sins.

[Guest Guest]

Just for reflection, I thought I would post some passages of Scripture:
(Romans 1:18-32) - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; {19} Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. {20} For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {21} Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. {22} Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, {23} And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

{24} Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: {25} Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. {26} For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: {27} And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. {28} And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

{29} Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, {30} Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, {31} Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: {32} Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

(Genesis 2:23-24) - "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. {24} Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

(Jude 1:7) - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh [or, unnatural ways; homosexuality], are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) - "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [or, homosexuals], nor abusers of themselves with mankind, {10} Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

The brackets and their were added by me, and I added the bolded text for emphasis.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[ltl]

While I believe some moral laws will be needed to be enforced, heavy-handed moral laws are often more dangerous than helpful - it doesn't solve the ROOT of sin at all, and it often robs people of freedoms in the process. The problem with government trying to enforce (emphasis "enforce") Biblical morality on society is the matter of relativity. Anti-sodomy laws are nowhere near OT standards at all.

Trying to enforce (Old Testament) Biblical morality in 100% accordance with God's Word would demand DEATH for homosexuals and not just them! WE will all be guilty of death as well. Because those guilty would also include adulterers (a few of us are guilty), those who curse their parents (almost all of us are guilty), those who kill innocent beings (including the unborn), not to mention those who curse or distrust God. I'm quite sure all of us will not agree that government should do that, because none of us can keep God's standards perfectly at all.

Before we (rightfully) condemn gay marriage, let's look at the problems common within many churches as well - how about divorce (a high 50% in USA, and ~30% in my home country)? Premarital sex? Broken marriages, childhoods, dysfunctional families? Doesn't the Scriptures condemn these as much as sodomy?
We Christians should strive to defeat sin through the gospel of CHRIST, rather than trusting in the strong hands of the state to do it for us. That's how casinos and brothels were closed down during the Great Awakening periods - not because of a law that makes it illegal, but because of souls saved.

Only when Christians and churches are awake rather than sleeping, then will more people get saved, and will acknowledge by their own free will the Biblical definition of marriage (or for any other thing).

[anime4christ]

Can anybody tell me how we are supposed to tell the homosexuals that homosexuality is a sin if we would support their lifestyle? Wouldn't that be sending the opposite message?

In light of Ezekiel 3:18-19, how can we ever support homosexuals in their sinful lifestyle?

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

We are to be the salt of the Earth; two things salt can do is preserve and irritate (yes, it can do more). If we can't do those things, then the salt has lost its flavor and is useless.

[Alimantado]

Can anybody tell me how we are supposed to tell the homosexuals that homosexuality is a sin if we would support their lifestyle? Wouldn't that be sending the opposite message? ...We are to be the salt of the Earth; two things salt can do is preserve and irritate (yes' date=' it can do more). If we can't do those things, then the salt has lost its flavor and is useless.[/quote']
This post and ltl's post do raise interesting questions about when to legislate. Is blasphemy or adultery illegal in the US and if not should Christians support/propose legistlation to make them illegal so as not to send out the "opposite message" that they think both are ok?

The same could be said for things that are perhaps not so explicitely identified as sin, such as greed. Should there be laws making greed illegal? Could a Christian who answered 'no' to that question be identified as one who supported greed, in the same way that Dwayner and others on here have been identified as supporting homosexuality?

These are genuine questions, btw; I'm not trying to characterize any position as absurd.

[ptwild]

Your 100% right, and thanks for saying it.

Some Christians wants to help the cause of the homosexuals, that is help sinners in their sins.

Not being opposed to two men being able to file a joint tax return has nothing to do with helping sinners sin. Your position assumes that gay people will quit being gay if we don't allow them to have the civic privileges of heterosexual couples.

I would like to know why homosexuality is the only sin that is given this treatment. Shouldn't we also make divorce illegal? To me, divorce is much more of an assault on "traditional marriage" than homosexual marriage.

Other than the slippery slope argument Mr. Jerry, what do you believe are the negative social repercussions of allowing two gay people to enter into some form of union (whether that union be called marriage or otherwise)?

[deafnva77]

actually in some countries, Greed is illegal.. which is why they support socialism, gov't programs, tax (and make laws) on companies,

[John81]

"Moral laws" are not intended to get to the root of any problem, they are intended to point out what is wrong and make such illegal with known consequences. It's up to society and individuals to deal with the root of such problems.

Adultery used to be illegal across the land but these laws, along with many more, have been done away with due to the liberalisation and secularisation of America.

Today it's an expression of "art" to strip for pay. Boozing it up all weekend, including Sunday, is just fine so long as you don't drink and drive. Having an affair (adultery) is promoted as potentially good for a relationship or natural, or no ones elses business...this, despite the fact society is devastated and everyone pays a high price for broken marriages, homes, wayward children, etc.

If one has no morals, then murder is fine, as are rape and theft. Morality is and should be a basis for laws.

[dwayner79]

deafnva77,

I don't understand you... Do you think socialism is good? Should laws be made in America to stop greed? If not, then the same logic carries through to other sins (including homosexuality).

To keep with the style of Jerrynumbers, it seems some here can't differentiate between political positions and scriptural positions. :roll

[deafnva77]

While I believe some moral laws will be needed to be enforced, heavy-handed moral laws are often more dangerous than helpful - it doesn't solve the ROOT of sin at all, and it often robs people of freedoms in the process. The problem with government trying to enforce (emphasis "enforce") Biblical morality on society is the matter of relativity. Anti-sodomy laws are nowhere near OT standards at all.

Trying to enforce (Old Testament) Biblical morality in 100% accordance with God's Word would demand DEATH for homosexuals and not just them! WE will all be guilty of death as well. Because those guilty would also include adulterers (a few of us are guilty), those who curse their parents (almost all of us are guilty), those who kill innocent beings (including the unborn), not to mention those who curse or distrust God. I'm quite sure all of us will not agree that government should do that, because none of us can keep God's standards perfectly at all.

Before we (rightfully) condemn gay marriage, let's look at the problems common within many churches as well - how about divorce (a high 50% in USA, and ~30% in my home country)? Premarital sex? Broken marriages, childhoods, dysfunctional families? Doesn't the Scriptures condemn these as much as sodomy?
We Christians should strive to defeat sin through the gospel of CHRIST, rather than trusting in the strong hands of the state to do it for us. That's how casinos and brothels were closed down during the Great Awakening periods - not because of a law that makes it illegal, but because of souls saved.

Only when Christians and churches are awake rather than sleeping, then will more people get saved, and will acknowledge by their own free will the Biblical definition of marriage (or for any other thing).

No one is saying we should punish gay .... We just don't want to recognize their marriage by law. It's discrimination of my beliefs, to tell you the truth

I'm ok with union. I mean I have two aunts who lived together and raised one of my cousin (whose father that left him.. he was already married). They wanted to look after each other. I doubt they want to call it marriage because of their religious belief, but they do want the same benefit as married people as well.

[deafnva77]

I really don't understand what greed has to do with homosexual and us recognizing their marriage. This is unbelievable that people support this. I hope you are willing to give up your governmental "marriage" title from your wife for homosexual's sake. Because it isn't going to stop there.

[ptwild]

deafnva: I'm having a hard time following you, but it appears that you merely want a monopoly on the word "marriage." I can go ahead and tell you that is not going to happen. Our government doesn't work that way. It's not in the business of defining what a word means. Now, it may legislate the actual substance of what the word means, but it has no authority to tell people they can't, for instance, call them selves a "Marshan" or a "Diddlebug" or a "Crazycat."

Look at it this way, nothing prevents two gay people from telling their friends, family and neighbors "we're married." Just like nothing could prevent two heterosexual people who are merely living together from telling others they are married. It doesn't make it true, but you can't prevent them from saying that.

Another thing, please explain how your life, or society in general, will differ if gay people are allowed the civic privileges of heterosexuals.