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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Another Gospel


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Another Gospel is a Gospel that is preached in contrast to what Paul preached.

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel [b]unto you than that which we have preached unto you,[/b] let him be accursed.

This gospel is not bound in a translated version. It is not limited by limits.

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I would be glad to elborate;

The Gospel of Christ is for all nations.

[quote]
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast [b]redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation[/b];
[/quote]

Translations are bound by language. In other words they are language specfic. The translations have limits in reach due to a language barrier. The word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not bound (limited) in an english translation. The Gospel spans beyound the english language. It is related, preached and declared in every langauage. It has not been limited by a translated version.

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[quote="My Saviour Leads Me"]
[quote]It has not been limited by a translated version.
[/quote]

now i understand but where does the Holy Spirit fit into this?[/quote]

Was Martin Luther saved?

If so, what kind of Bible was he reading?

And . . . was the HOLY SPIRIT involved?

(now, I'm not asking if Martin Luther was doctrinally sound in every area - merely asking, "was he saved?"

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My Saviour Leads Me[quote]
="now i understand but where does the Holy Spirit fit into this?
[/quote]

I am not sure if I understand the question?

baptistbiblebeliever;

[quote]
Was Martin Luther saved?

If so, what kind of Bible was he reading?

And . . . was the HOLY SPIRIT involved?

(now, I'm not asking if Martin Luther was doctrinally sound in every area - merely asking, "was he saved?"
[/quote]

I could answer the first part of the question with a question (was Lot saved?,, or how about Spurgeon? Or Whitfield? Both embraced Augustine and Spurgeon himself even said [quote]
"The old truths that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, is the truth that I preach today""
[/quote]

As to Luther. The think the scriptures answer the question from our view as fellow brethren in Adam judging our own.

[quote]
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
[/quote]

What bible was he reading?

Luther was reading the Latin bible and working on the tranlation of the Latin into German during his confession on coming to realize that man is justified by faith alone.

Was the Holy Spirit involved?

[quote]
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: [b]and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.[/b]
[/quote]

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[quote]
My Saviour Leads MeQuote:
="now i understand but where does the Holy Spirit fit into this?
[/quote]



1 Corinthians 2

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [b]10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.[/b]

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My Saviour leads me;

You are getting in the Calvinist view of election if you take this route of showing a man must be regenerated by the Spirit before he can recieve anything spiritual.

In

[quote]
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[/quote]

1. Our Lord told Nicodemus earthly things to relate the new birth.

2. The Gospel was commited to man and is preached by man to man.

[quote]
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
[/quote]

3. Man can recieve the Gospel. He can know the truth of The Man Christ Jesus.

[quote]
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[/quote]

4. No man will get saved till he goes to The MAN Christ Jesus. In fact Jesus clearly told Nicodemus

[quote]
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[/quote]

5. The Gospel for man, recieved from man, and is about a Man... Christ Jesus.

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[quote]
You are getting in the Calvinist view of election if you take this route of showing a man must be regenerated by the Spirit before he can recieve anything spiritual.
[/quote]

1 Corinthians 2 is dealing with the Holy Spirit opening up our understanding - specifically opening up God's Word to the saved. It is not dealing with regeneration at all.

[quote]
The Gospel for man, recieved from man, and is about a Man... Christ Jesus.
[/quote]

IThomas, I am not sure what you are saying in your above post. The Gospel is about the Saviour, who was both man and God - in fact, God manifest in the flesh.

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[quote]
My Saviour leads me;

You are getting in the Calvinist view of election if you take this route of showing a man must be regenerated by the Spirit before he can recieve anything spiritual.
[/quote]

Forgive me for not making myself more clear. the reason that i used this portion of scripture is that we were discussing translations and i asked you where the Holy Spirit fit in. i was trying to explain through the use of scripture how that without the Spirit of God we cannot understand any translation the Spirit illumines us the Holy Scriptures.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

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[quote]
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
[/quote]

This verse is the cornerstone verse of Calvinist's who teach that regeneration must take place before enlightenment.


My Saviour Leads Me wrote

[quote]
Forgive me for not making myself more clear. the reason that i used this portion of scripture is that we were discussing translations and i asked you where the Holy Spirit fit in. i was trying to explain through the use of scripture how that without the Spirit of God we cannot understand any translation the Spirit illumines us the Holy Scriptures.
[/quote]

I agree that the unsaved can not understand Spiritual things. If we be honest, infants in Christ can not either.

[quote]
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, [b]the deep things of God[/b].
[/quote]

Can a man understand the statement in the scriptures?

[quote]
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[/quote]

Can a man (without being moved upon by the Holy Spirit) recieve these verses? Sure He can.

Jerry wrote;
[quote]
IThomas, I am not sure what you are saying in your above post. The Gospel is about the Saviour, who was both man and God - in fact, God manifest in the flesh.
[/quote]

Jerry;

Christ was as much man as He was God. No man will ever know Christ as God without knowing His priestly work of becoming man. Is this why Paul simply called Him. The man.... This is His work of being Mediator. No man can come to God but by Him. I am not trying to discredit Him as God. For in Him is the fulness of the Godhead bodily and we are complete in Him. Salvation is being made extremely complicated in this apostate age. Man must simply go the man Christ Jesus. The Mediator.

Also, as to the idea of the Spirit moving upon the unregenerate before unenlightenment or to enlighten.

[quote]
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[/quote]

The world can not recieve the Spirit of truth. Unregenerated man can not recieve the Spirit. He can recieve the Gospel and the Man Christ Jesus.

Jerry? Why did Paul say under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, simply "the man" Christ Jesus and not the God man Christ Jesus?

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[quote]
Jerry? Why did Paul say under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, simply "the man" Christ Jesus and not the God man Christ Jesus?
[/quote]

Because in that ONE verse he was emphasizing the Mediatorship of Christ - the go-between. As Man, He was the Mediator between God the Father and mankind.

But you are stating your opinion like this is Paul's regular emphasis or manner of speaking, but it is not.

This is the Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to Paul, the resurrection is proof that Jesus is God:

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So to believe the Gospel certainly includes calling upon God (The LORD Jesus Christ) to save you:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[quote]
If we be honest, infants in Christ can not either.
[/quote]

The only limit God places upon us understanding spiritual things is when we are carnal. It is true a babe in Christ will not be able to grasp as much - this will come with growth. The difference I am trying to state is: the carnal cannot understand, the babes will only understand in part - until they growth enough to do so. Either way, old or new Christian, we still need the Holy Spirit to open up the Scriptures to us and to teach us.

[quote]
Can a man (without being moved upon by the Holy Spirit) recieve these verses? Sure He can.
[/quote]

Not according to the Biblical definition of receive. He might hear them and say he believes them, but he will not understand them fully or receive what God wants him to learn from them. For example, I can read John 3 and learn the history of the passage, get a general grasp of what was said - but without the Holy Spirit enlightening me, I will not be able to understand the "spiritual meaning" of the passage.

[quote]
The world can not recieve the Spirit of truth. Unregenerated man can not recieve the Spirit. He can recieve the Gospel and the Man Christ Jesus.
[/quote]

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This passage is stating that we cannot receive the comfort that the Holy Spirit can bring us if we are not His children. It is not talking about receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of getting saved (He dwells us quite apart from any conscious choice in the matter when we turn to the Saviour for salvation), nor receiving His witness - because is what happens when we respond to the Gospel. We are certainly lost UNTIL that point in time.

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Jerry;

I am not discrediting the need for a man to know that Christ is God. A unsaved man can not even begin to know the deity of Christ. He can be told and through faith accept this truth.

Man can know about man. He can know that a man who knew us, (in that He was man)gave himself for us. He can go to that man.

I really fail to see your use of 1 Cor 10:13 has anything to do with this?

As far as my statement about being infants. Baby christians are carnal. There is no doubt about that. Can you show me in the scriptures where a baby Christian is not carnal? I can show where they are declared to be

[quote]
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even [b]as unto babes in Christ.[/b]
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
[/quote]


Jerry wrote;
[quote]
Not according to the Biblical definition of receive. He might hear them and say he believes them, but he will not understand them fully or receive what God wants him to learn from them. For example, I can read John 3 and learn the history of the passage, get a general grasp of what was said - but without the Holy Spirit enlightening me, I will not be able to understand the "spiritual meaning" of the passage.
[/quote]

Please show me one verse in John 3 in the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus where Jesus told Him one spiritual thing? Just one?

I do not think that Jesus lied.

[quote]
Joh 3:12 If I have told you [b]earthly things[/b], and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things
[/quote]

The heavenly aspect was right in front of him. They only one from heaven. Christ Jesus. Nicodemus could go to him as a man. Jesus talked to him as a Man.


Jerry wrote
[quote]
This passage is stating that we cannot receive the comfort that the Holy Spirit can bring us if we are not His children
[/quote]

I think it says the Spirit. Can not recieve the Spirit. Sure a man can not recieve the comfort of the Spirit,, because the world can not recieve the Spirit.

What makes a man stop counting the things of the Spirit as being foolishness?

The answer is the Gospel. (Preached by man, to man about the Man Christ Jesus)

What aspect of the Gospel can a man understand without the impartation of the Spirit?

The answer is The Man Christ Jesus as Mediator.

What convicts the sinner?

The Word sent forth [b]from [/b]the Preacher who is filled with the Spirit.

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[quote]
I really fail to see your use of 1 Cor 10:13 has anything to do with this?
[/quote]

That's good - it was an oversight/error on my part. I was copying some references out of 1 Corinthians, and typed 1 Cor 10.13 instead of Romans 10.13. I didn't even read the verse, just copy/pasted it. Thanks for pointing it out. Corrected now.

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No - the Bible does NOT say baby Christians are carnal. They may not be. What it does state is that a carnal Christian is as (or like) a baby Christian. Big difference. It is proper for a baby Christian to need to drink milk and learn the basics, and learn how to walk with the Lord - baby steps. BUT it is not proper for an older Christian to be the same way. They should have reached a greater level of maturity in the Lord, in His Word, in their walks with the Lord.

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[quote]
Please show me one verse in John 3 in the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus where Jesus told Him one spiritual thing? Just one?
[/quote]

:?: The WHOLE conversation was spiritual: being born again, believing on the only begotten Son of God for salvation, explaining what the serpent in the wilderness was a picture of, etc.

[quote]
What makes a man stop counting the things of the Spirit as being foolishness?

The answer is the Gospel. (Preached by man, to man about the Man Christ Jesus)

[b]What aspect of the Gospel can a man understand without the impartation of the Spirit?[/b]

The answer is The Man Christ Jesus as Mediator.
[/quote]

No one is EVER saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. But that is not imparting the Holy Spirit to them, that is the Holy Spirit work of testifying of Christ, enlightening them to the truth, convicting them of sin, etc. He does that on their hearts and minds, then when the truth is received (sin repented of and the Saviour received), they are born again.

Joh 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And [b]when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment[/b]:
Joh 16:9 [b]Of sin, because they believe not on me;[/b]
Joh 16:10 [b]Of righteousness[/b], because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 [b]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged[/b].
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 [b]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[/b]

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Jerry wrote;
[quote]
The WHOLE conversation was spiritual: being born again, believing on the only begotten Son of God for salvation, explaining what the serpent in the wilderness was a picture of, etc.
[/quote]

[size=18]?[/size] So Jesus lied? Please explain how Jesus himself saying....
[quote]
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[/quote] does not mean what it said.

The whole conversation was told in earthly illustrations. I think I will believe the scriptures when Jesus said he spoke of earthly things.

You mentioned John 16:7-14

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[b]This is answered in verse 9-11[/b]

Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Is not this the Gospel. If you want to say that the Holy Spirit's work is the Gospel. (which it is of coarse) then.. Yes the Holy Spirit's work is done when the Gospel is preached to someone. You make this to be that the Spirit itself moves upon unregenerate man to convict him of sin. Simply the Gospel is for this purpose.

[quote]
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
[/quote]

You also highlighted

[b]Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[/b]

This is for the redeemed. The Spirit shows things to the lost? He does through the Gospel. You make it so that the Spirit must move on a man before he can even go to God.

What draws a man?

[quote]
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
[/quote]

The Gospel of Christ Jesus draws a man, not a moving of the Spirit to overwhelm his choices.

How about?

[quote]
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[/quote]

Also, can the Spirit move upon a man without the preaching of the Gospel?

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[quote]
No - the Bible does NOT say baby Christians are carnal. They may not be. What it does state is that a carnal Christian is as (or like) a baby Christian. Big difference. It is proper for a baby Christian to need to drink milk and learn the basics, and learn how to walk with the Lord - baby steps. BUT it is not proper for an older Christian to be the same way. They should have reached a greater level of maturity in the Lord, in His Word, in their walks with the Lord.
[/quote]

So carnal Christian and baby Christian have something in common? They are babies?

The word for carnal is found 130 times in the majority text. The vast majority of that time it is translated flesh. The baby in Christ most assurdly is more fleshly than Spiritual.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have [b]their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.[/b]

Only those of full age can discern between good and evil

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[quote]
Yes the Holy Spirit's work is done when the Gospel is preached to someone. You make this to be that the Spirit itself moves upon unregenerate man to convict him of sin. Simply the Gospel is for this purpose.
[/quote]

The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel.

[quote]
The Spirit shows things to the lost? He does through the Gospel. You make it so that the Spirit must move on a man before he can even go to God.
[/quote]

You are 100% right there! No man can be saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. He sought us first, and [b]He [/b]calls us through the preaching of the Gospel.

[quote]
What draws a man? The Gospel of Christ Jesus draws a man, not a moving of the Spirit to overwhelm his choices.
[/quote]

No one here is talking about God forcing or overwhelming something. There are only a couple out of hundreds of members here that are Calvinistic.

Again, no one can be saved without the Holy Spirit's work of convicting and enlightening men to the truth of the Gospel. This is why it is imperative that we are filled with the Spirit when we preach, teach, or witness - otherwise, the words alone will not bear fruit. The medium the Spirit uses to bring faith is the preaching of the Gospel. They must both go together.

[quote]
So Jesus lied? Please explain how Jesus himself saying....
The whole conversation was told in earthly illustrations. I think I will believe the scriptures when Jesus said he spoke of earthly things.
[/quote]

Jesus did not say He didn't or wasn't going to speak on spiritual things - what He said was that Nicodemus couldn't even understand what Jesus said already - when He compared the physical birth to the Spiritual birth. He then goes on to talk about the serpent in the wilderness - which was a type of Christ - definitely a spiritual illustration!

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

[quote]
Only those of full age can discern between good and evil
[/quote]

No, it is saying those who are of full age can - it does not say no one else can. Obviously, someone not mature will not be able to do it as effectively - that is what the exercising of this discernment is all about. How can you exercise something you don't even have. You must have muscles to be able to develop them and make them stronger. Even a baby Christian can have discernment if they take the things in their life and bring it under the searchlight of Scripture. As they grow and mature, they will be better equipped to do so.

As a brand new Christian, I took all that was in my life (music, books, movies, video games, etc.) and compared what they said, taught, contained, etc. with what the Bible taught. There was a measure of discernment the Lord gave me right away (as I obeyed clear commands and principles of Scripture), and some things I learned over time - in other words, my ability to discern according to the Word of God was exercised and strengthened as I grew in the Lord and applied what I knew as I walked with Him.

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 0 replies
    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 1 reply
    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
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        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

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      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
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                                                  4
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      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
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      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
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      6
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      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
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      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
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      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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