The Catholic View of Salvation

[JohnnyGotham]

[b]I got this from a nother message board. The author is a devout Catholic. He also said that one of the atheists on the forum who had been through the Catholic confirmation was A Christian, despite the fact that he said he was an atheist and has attacked God and Christians many times.[/b]

I've been sort of skimming this thread since it was first posted, and I can't help but throw in a slight non-sequiter: All this talk about determining who a "real" Christian is is pretty pointless. Evangelical-types seem obsessed with it partly, I imagine, because in the back of every Evangelical's mind resides a little hyper-calvinist or spiritual elitest. They like to think they belong to some sort of super club where all the members are royalty.

Contrast that with the Catholic view--yes, we were/are/will be saved, but only by persevering until the end. And it's in this that you find the real, true, objective measure of one's salvation. Let me clear on that--amongst the plethora of Christian kiosks set up in the marketplace of ideas, only one offers an objective, reasonable assurance of salvation--Catholicism. To illustrate:

A man accepts Jesus in the fundamentalist way and lives his life in perfect harmony with the Gospel until one day, he commits a grievous sin, or series of them. Let's say he commits adultery, kills his mistress, commits fraud, runs over a puppy and refuses to tip the bartender all in the same day. (Busy guy, I know). Then, without making amends either outwardly or in his heart, he dies unrepentant.

Now, the debate can go several ways here, but I don't want to get into his ultimate destination. I want to get into the typical fundamentalist response. Depending on the sect one belongs to, you'll either say "Well, he was good MOST of his life, so that outweighs the bad." Or, more likely, "He was never saved in the first place."

I hear that all the time. Backslidden Christians were "never saved in the first place," and despite what they'll try to tell you, these backslidden really did believe they were "saved" when they "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior."

Okay, a less extreme example--let's say someone does the magical "accept Jesus" thing, and then lives an exemplary life. But, somewhere along the way, they slip back into sin. Again, the extremely common response to this is, "I/he was never saved in the first place." So, let's say this person recommits himself to Christ.

All done? Perhaps, but for me, and any other thinking person, a question arises--"If I wasn't really saved in the first place, despite my sincere commitment to Christ, how can I know I am now?"

That's a very good question that is usually asked just before someone converts to Catholicism.

Why? Because we Catholics don't like those dusty, neglected corners of the metaphysical realm. Like Hemmingway, we like clean, well-lighted places. And, we've been thinking about this stuff for 2000 years.

Here's the primer on the Catholic view of who's really a Christian--you're baptised and confirmed. That's it. Of course, to be a good Christian it takes more than that--You also have to have faith, receive the sacraments, etc. Whether you're saved depends on the state of your soul at death. Were you in a state of grace, or no? In other words, were you in a state of rebellion against God or no?

The Catholic knows that his faith, no matter how strong, is no guarantee against sin. We still stumble, and if we're sincere, we pick ourselves back up and go to it again. Our entire state as a Christian isn't at stake every time we commit a mortal sin. Our SALVATION is, but not our identity. When a Protestant backslides--even just once--certain quarters of that "community" (like the former Soviet states are a "community," but whatever), will say "Aha! You've been exposed--you're not a true Christian!" When a Catholic falls, we say "Get to Confession--immediately." But we don't automatically rip away that person's Catholic badge. Why? Because it's imprinted on his soul.

This is going on MUCH longer than I'd intended, but that's what happens when you try to write a self-sufficient, argument-proof post. I know I'm not going to come back and return every volley, so I'm trying to write it with every objection in mind. After nearly 10,000 posts, I should really know better, but whatever.

So, back to that fundamentalist problem of knowing whether his "acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" took: After the Protestant's first fall and subsequent (hopefully) repentance and recommitment to Jesus, he's got that question in his mind--"I thought I was saved once, so how can I know now?" Answer: Objectively, he can't. There are just as many snares waiting for him between now and death as before.

What about the Catholic? He KNOWS. He knows because one doesn't accidentally commit mortal sins. Mortal sins are conscious, objective rejections of God. There's no question about it. And if he's a good/bad or bad/good Catholic, (like me, in other words), he knows that in his present state, if he were to get hit by the Reaper's Bus on the way home, he'd go to Hell. He's still a Christian, but he's technically toast. The remedy? To go to Confession, receive absolution, resolve not to do that anymore, and then NOT DO IT.

Obviously, there are about 84 topics in this meandering post we could argue about, but even after the next ten years of debating them, the bottom line would be the same. Catholic theology allows for greater certainty of salvation than Protestant.

[dwayner79]

This is another catholic's description. They Absolutely believe you can lose your salvation by choosing to walk away from God.

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With respect to your comment about "works," and the Catholics you spoke to/with, they were not mistaken, but they weren't completely on the mark either. Again, this stems from a weakened education system and catechetical school directly resulting from the carefree style post the 1960's and Vatican II. Much is misunderstood from that council and many gifted scholars took advantage of the idea of "interpretation" and spun their own doctrines into the Catholic schools, the catechetical classes, the seminaries, the universities, the Church masses, etc. This resulted in a waterdowned theology for the next generation of Catholics, so much so that Catholics in much of North America don

[Kubel]

What's strange is Catholicism has plenty of verses in scripture to back up their doctrines- but their application of those verses are so bizarre. And I thought some Baptists were bad for taking a few verses out of context. Try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's well cited with verses to back up everything- but almost everything is pulled out of context and in many cases, twisted to say something that not even the verse itself (let alone the rest of the chapter) is saying. It's amazing to me that people with access to even a NAB translation (Catholic translation) would continue to believe in these errors. Even their translation can show that they are misapplied.

[dwayner79]

With more then the Bible as source for truth, they can do that.

You are right though. It is so close. My opinion, wrong, but close.

[bibletotingunslinger]

This week I was used by the Holy Spirit to preach to a young man who has been counceling with a Catholic Priest.
I am praying for his Salvation before he falls into this diversion.
It took my mother-in-law til the very end to part with the hail mary's.
The last thing I said to a Catholic Priest "was you killed us all through the dark ages", all he said was, "I know.".
May I quote some things here.
Sir Isaac Newton:
"The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome."

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent: "Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past 1200 years, they would swarm in greater number than all the reformers."

Thank you for letting me vent, I will shut up now.

[anime4christ]

Wow, I didn't know I was that hated by the catholic church, even though I knew it hates me already.

[bibletotingunslinger]

Hey there anime4christ, I know I am easily impressed, but this little line at the bottom of your postings is just more than right on.


Jesus has changed your life. Save changes? (Y/N)

[anime4christ]

thanx ^_^

[Chelle]

I agree, A4C, I really like your sig line too. :)

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Keep in mind that although Catholics dislike us and are leading people astray with they works based salvation they are still in need of faith in which they rely on the finished work at Calvary for their salvation. If the Lord thought we could earn salvation he would have told us to keep the law and He wouldn't have had to send His precious Son to die for us.

May they like many ex Catholics that have found true Christian liberty in Christ come to truly accept His sacrifice for them.

[april]

I don't think Catholics dislike us - on the contrary from the different Baptist boards that I've been on it seems as though many of the Baptist posters have a special animosity (read hate) towards Catholics.

I've never seen Catholics say that Baptists were a part of a cult or worshipped the Bible. But I have seen plenty of Baptists accuse Catholics of being in a cult and worshipping Mary.

I think that we should obey Jesus's commandment and love one another (John 13:34) rather than spend time condemning one another.

[anime4christ]

I don't know if any baptists hate catholics, I'm quite sure some do, but the majority of us don't as far as I'm aware of, what we do hate is catholicism. And I'm 100% sure there are catholics who hate baptists, even though it may not be all of them who do.

[John81]

I know these two were extreme, but a couple years ago I encountered a couple Traditional Catholics (that's what they called themselves) who believed anyone who wasn't Catholic or willing to convert to Catholicism should be put to death.

[LindaR]

[quote="John81"]
I know these two were extreme, but a couple years ago I encountered a couple Traditional Catholics (that's what they called themselves) who believed anyone who wasn't Catholic or willing to convert to Catholicism should be put to death.
[/quote]

That sounds almost like Islam--convert or die. Islam means "Submit"

[John81]

Very true Linda. These guys believed things should go back to the way they were when the Pope crowned kings, when it was demanded that everyone be Catholic and the Church had the authority and power to have their will enforced.