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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?


John81
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The morning and the evening weer the first day

That is like a Catholic saying to you.. 'Take, eat: this is my body' why not just believe what the word says?

I guess you might say 'you have to carefully consider the context'

Clear as a bell!

 

whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2Pe 1:19 

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That is like a Catholic saying to you.. 'Take, eat: this is my body' why not just believe what the word says?

I guess you might say 'you have to carefully consider the context'

whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2Pe 1:19 

That is a silly argument.  Each of the seven had a evening and a morning.  0

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That is a silly argument.  Each of the seven had a evening and a morning.  0

well if you are going to ignore the fact that the first three DAYS in record (Day= yome from an unused root meaning to be hot warmth) were under way including dusk and dawn and Warmth before our earthly sun was made, then it is silly.

Can't you just accept that there are things mentioned in Scripture of which we are not given allot of Detail, such as the sons of God and the morning stars singing in Joyful assembly before Adam was created, the priesthood of Melchisedec and any one of Gods Days, let alone all of His Heavens, or are you going to try dragging it all down to a scale with which you can relate.? It's a rhetorical question if you like!

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well if you are going to ignore the fact that the first three DAYS in record (Day= yome from an unused root meaning to be hot warmth) were under way including dusk and dawn and Warmth before our earthly sun was made, then it is silly.

Can't you just accept that there are things mentioned in Scripture of which we are not given allot of Detail, such as the sons of God and the morning stars singing in Joyful assembly before Adam was created, the priesthood of Melchisedec and any one of Gods Days, let alone all of His Heavens, or are you going to try dragging it all down to a scale with which you can relate.? It's a rhetorical question if you like!

Can't you just accept that God doesn't have to have the sun in place in order to have a literal 24 hour day in operation?

You are trying to create mystery where Scripture is very clear in what it says.

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Can't you just accept that God doesn't have to have the sun in place in order to have a literal 24 hour day in operation?

But He did have light and when he divided it from darkness he called it WARM, or HOT.

If I was going to theorize about what the Light of verse 5 is, then I would probably go with the verse which Matt suggested (Posted Monday at 7:49 PM · Report post >>>> but Rev 21:23 indicates that it could have been God's glory<<<<< Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.) and guess that it is Christ, it would make sense that the universe which is made to glorify God would have the Sun in the Centre if the ‘Sun of righteousness’ is representative of the ‘Son of Righteousness’ this imagery would seem to make consistent sense.

Some of the verses below could lead into a debate or two about the nature of Christ and creation, and His eternal Sonship or not, but here is just a few scriptures about Christ as the SUN in order to give food for thought.
 
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There was no reference in Genesis 1 to the creation of these ‘morning stars’ nor to these ‘sons of God’ and they are all there rejoicing as God is laying the foundation of the earth which we inhabit. How long had they been created for?

Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pr 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pr 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pr 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

This sounds like a longer period of time than a few days.

Ps 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Ps 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Ps 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Ps 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Ps 19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
Ps 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

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God gives us clearly in His Word that each day was a 24 hour day, "And the evening and the morning were the first day"..."And the evening and the morning were the sixth day". From evening to morning is used as a literal reference to a literal 24 hour day during the entire creation from day 1 to day 6.

Why argue or speculate where the Word is so very clear? Such serves no good purpose.

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I'll say it one last time...

You can't conflate prophecy with historical narrative. "Day" in Gen 1 has always meant a regular day as we understand it not matter how much you try to read into it. Gen 1:5 gives a very clear description and delimiter for the definition of that day and how it was reckoned. That is how the original audience took it. That is how it has always been taken until people compromised with atheistic Darwinism. Those are facts you can't get around.

I'm out.

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I know I said I was out, but given the way this topic has gone, I thought this article would be a good read for anyone wondering why Genesis 1-11 should be read as history and not taken allegorically like poetry or prophecy:

http://creation.com/genesis-is-history

Out again.

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Prov 8 is speaking of the wisdom of God, hence it is beyond time, being an attribute of God.

Some think it is Christ, but some think it isn't because it was 'set up' and sounds like wisdom might have been created, but i could see how if it was Christ it could still make sense, IE in the beginning was the Word.. and the Word was God. But before God Spoke time was not. Once God spoke, 'let there be light' then Christ the wisdom of God was 'setup' as a sign and also would become the Son of God as opposed to the Word of God. I tend to think that beyond our time there will be an heavenly time which will be closer to eternity but sort of slower than our time, no I don't think I have a scripture for that.

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http://creation.com/genesis-is-history

>>>Our ministry supports the authority of the Bible from the very first verse. However, some opponents of biblical (‘young earth’) creation also claim to believe in the authority of Scripture, but claim that Genesis 1–11 is poetry or allegory.  <<<

If I was going to claim that a portion of Scripture had some sort of poetic or rhythmic style to it I would not be claiming it to be untrue. I hope people can see that it is possible to put truth in poetry, or perhaps the truth just is poetic when understood correctly

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Some think it is Christ, but some think it isn't because it was 'set up' and sounds like wisdom might have been created, but i could see how if it was Christ it could still make sense, IE in the beginning was the Word.. and the Word was God. But before God Spoke time was not. Once God spoke, 'let there be light' then Christ the wisdom of God was 'setup' as a sign and also would become the Son of God as opposed to the Word of God. I tend to think that beyond our time there will be an heavenly time which will be closer to eternity but sort of slower than our time, no I don't think I have a scripture for that.

I understand where you are coming from on this, but in a way that's perhaps a little dangerous. See, there is a feminist movement that worships Jesus as Sophia, the female version of Jesus, also associated with wisdom. Other verses in Proverbs speak of wisdom with a female personification, so it really can't be referring to Jesus. As well, Jesus was in the beginning WITH God, and indeed, IS God, so He wasn't set up, as it were.  But really, we are speaking on things that the Bible only hints at, in ways that we can't really get enough information and understanding as to be able to make a concrete doctrine out of.  I mean, if Jesus is the 'Word', the literal personification of the very mind of God, then when did He begin to exist in such a manner at to be considered a separate individual? I know that's a clumsy way of putting it, but I think I make my point. Really, as long as there has been God, there has been Jesus Christ-just not flesh until a body was prepared for Him. Some things are best left to just faith, I think. The secret things belong to God.

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So your just going to change the meaning of day from one verse to the next when it fits your interpretation?

 

this is not dividing the word of God properly.

Hello Jordan, how finely can the word be divided? (Genesis 1 has got to be THE BOOK of Dividing. That Article which Matt has posted above goes carefully into the Hebrew and then just starts throwing in huge assumptions about time and our earth turning etc, things which are not in the text. But it is human to err.)

>My previous post was>>Ex 20:10 But the seventh day (This is obviously a 24 hour day) is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    Ex 20:11 For in six days (this however looks more like the days of Gen 1) the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.<<<

>>You said>>>So your just going to change the meaning of day from one verse to the next when it fits your interpretation?

this is not dividing the word of God properly.<<<<<

I am not changing the meaning of the word, Day, as defined by Gen 1:5 it means a cycle of evening and morning; a Day. But as to the type of day being described would depend on what the light was and why it was cycled. We have a good idea what causes our day, it is the heat from our sun as our earth turns on its axis, as far as we can figure out. And this presumably is an illustration of Gods Day, which must be much more glorious than the image of it which he has given to us.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

This Sun doesn’t rise every 24 hours, but we know for sure that just as surly as day follows night, the Sun of Righteousness SHALL arise! This would seem to be reminding us that even though there is much room for flexibility and variably within the plan and purposes of God, there is also an inevitability about certain events.

An interesting little detail which I noticed is as follows, there are two related words in Gen 1:1-15 which are translated as ‘light’ one of the words is the Root, and one is the Derivative, I think it is interesting that the Root word is used to describe the light which comes from our sun and moon, but the derivative is used to describe the original light in Genesis 1:3, this would seem to fit with the perspective of the text being taken from Moses stand point and Gods  use of our natural light being used to illustrate the Light of God in the spiritual reality to which Moses was looking forward to, but which we are now entered into by faith as born again sons.

Gen 1:3
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
216. 'owr
Search for H216 in KJVSL
rwa 'owr ore
from 215; illumination or (concrete) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):--bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.

See Hebrew 215

Gen 1:15
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
215. 'owr
Search for H215 in KJVSL
rwa 'owr ore
a primitive root; to be (causative, make) luminous (literally and metaphorically):--X break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine.

 

 

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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I understand where you are coming from on this, but in a way that's perhaps a little dangerous. See, there is a feminist movement that worships Jesus as Sophia, the female version of Jesus, also associated with wisdom. Other verses in Proverbs speak of wisdom with a female personification, so it really can't be referring to Jesus. As well, Jesus was in the beginning WITH God, and indeed, IS God, so He wasn't set up, as it were.  But really, we are speaking on things that the Bible only hints at, in ways that we can't really get enough information and understanding as to be able to make a concrete doctrine out of.  I mean, if Jesus is the 'Word', the literal personification of the very mind of God, then when did He begin to exist in such a manner at to be considered a separate individual? I know that's a clumsy way of putting it, but I think I make my point. Really, as long as there has been God, there has been Jesus Christ-just not flesh until a body was prepared for Him. Some things are best left to just faith, I think. The secret things belong to God.

 

Ultimately it is by faith we understand these things, and I realize we need to be careful on assumptions such as ‘Wisdom is God the son’, and as you point out that Wisdom is female in some of the proverbs, So I do try not to be fixed on my understanding on such matters, I’ve never heard of Sophia Jesus but I’m not surprised there are such a wide and powerful feminist movement in the world and ‘church’, this is one reason which I would try to face up to the issues.

I think it is a gross distortion and utter blasphemy to refer to God as ‘she’, as ever more seem keen to do, how though do we to think about Scriptures such as:

‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23:37  and (coincidentally) Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved* upon the face of the waters.
*This same word is translated as ‘fluttereth’ in De 32:11

However we do not need to look to the metaphors of scripture to find the truth of God as concerning whether He is male or female, we are told clearly in Genesis chapter one. (coincidentally)
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And we get a closer look in chapter two:

Ge 2:21-3 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

So God is Whole. Adam and Eve it would seem were somewhat dependent one on the other.

As far as The matter of the Trinity, I used to be stumbled at Scriptures such as Joh 14:28 …my Father is greater than I. Or Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
But there are more than a few Scriptures about the Son becoming what he had to become in order to redeem mankind, such as
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh…
If the ‘word was made’ then change is a necessity.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us,
He was ‘made’, this means he must have changed,
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

I think this verse only makes sense if taken to mean from Glory to the cross.

It is not possible to know God fully but our developing understanding should keep all scriptures in mind, I think Christ the Word while in The bosom of the Father would have been truly in Eternity and Gory, and only to know all and be all would eternity be possible. If God had to think, this would seem to necessitate the passage of time, but God knowing all and being all would know already. Once God ‘created’ or 'spoke', then time would have started and Christ I believe would have become the Son of God, and would have necessarily begun to pour out his life and pay the price of the redemption of His creation, evidently for the joy set before him a price worth paying.

So not only did Christ return to Glory but he wrought and bought a great victory and brought us into his Glory to share together for eternity.

God Bless.

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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Dear friends in Christ

I think science and religion do not have to oppose each other here. Clearly we cannot have 100% reliability in the science of Carbon Dating(67% confidence level) in anything less than 50,000 years, however we can be of reasonable, educated minds to understand how God in his infinite ability can create such a beautiful universe, more specifically our planet in the normal process of plate tectonics through subduction zones, natural sedimentation and other processes. For our planet to evolve to its current state, it takes millions, not 6 thousand years to develop. Take the Hawaiian Islands for an example of this process. These islands were created by a hotspot under the earth's crust and as plate moves inches, maybe feet westward each year, so does the volcanic activity, thus creating each of its islands. I know we want the interpretation of the Bible to be a literal interpretation of God's word, but understand that the men who wrote the books of the Bible were from the mindset of that time, which did not have the science to illuminate God's creation, so we can better understand the beauty of its origin. Let's try to keep our minds open to possibilities. 

 

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Scripture is the best interpreter of scripture. God said unto Moses, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Ex. 20:11) The Lord God Almighty commands us to rest and take a sabbath DAY, just as the Lord Himself rested on the seventh DAY. The word "DAY" is the key word here. Some might argue that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8), therefore there is a possibility that the Earth is billions of years old. If the Lord commanded us to rest a DAY, then so should we. If the Lord meant a long time span such as thousands of years for one day, are we  to rest a thousand years too in like manner? The word  "DAY" in the Hebrew is the word "Yom" and can refer to a literal day, or a span of time. This is debatable as to whether to take it literally. I would. As the above poster said, Carbon dating is unreliable. Just like Evolution. If we evolved from apes, where are the transitional fossils? there are absolutely None. We should have at least found thousands of skeletons (or pieces) of the evolution of ape to man, but we find none whatsoever. As for me, I look forward to a New Earth. This is not a remodeled Earth as some have suggested, it is as the Bible says, a NEW Earth with no more sea. It can be hundreds, thousands, even million times larger than the Earth we live on now. So yes, I believe in an Old Earth, because a NEW and glorious Earth awaits us.

"

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Omega, good points on your post with possibilty of biblical time being measured differently. As far as Transitional fossils, visit the Smithsonian Human Fossil collection. This is the best place to understand that to be evolved from animals is not unGodly, but beautiful. We as Humans have so much history. 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/

Here is an interesting evolutionary fact on why we get Goosebumps....The body hair of all mammals automatically stands up when cold, creating a fluffy layer of warmth. When we’re cold, the muscles around the hair follicles contract – a reflex left over from when our ancestors had long body hair. But since we don’t have much body hair, all we see are the goose bumps on our skin.

Have a blessed day!

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6 hours ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

Dear friends in Christ

I think science and religion do not have to oppose each other here. Clearly we cannot have 100% reliability in the science of Carbon Dating(67% confidence level) in anything less than 50,000 years, however we can be of reasonable, educated minds to understand how God in his infinite ability can create such a beautiful universe, more specifically our planet in the normal process of plate tectonics through subduction zones, natural sedimentation and other processes. For our planet to evolve to its current state, it takes millions, not 6 thousand years to develop. Take the Hawaiian Islands for an example of this process. These islands were created by a hotspot under the earth's crust and as plate moves inches, maybe feet westward each year, so does the volcanic activity, thus creating each of its islands. I know we want the interpretation of the Bible to be a literal interpretation of God's word, but understand that the men who wrote the books of the Bible were from the mindset of that time, which did not have the science to illuminate God's creation, so we can better understand the beauty of its origin. Let's try to keep our minds open to possibilities. 

 

If I may, lets just contrast that a little with the end times which are also predominantly taken literally, Rev 16:17-21:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

My point is this: None of this will occur via evolution, beach erosion, natural selection or random tectonic plates shifts either my friend. Make sure you know in your heart what you believe. The time is short......

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6 hours ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

Dear friends in Christ

I think science and religion do not have to oppose each other here. Clearly we cannot have 100% reliability in the science of Carbon Dating(67% confidence level) in anything less than 50,000 years, however we can be of reasonable, educated minds to understand how God in his infinite ability can create such a beautiful universe, more specifically our planet in the normal process of plate tectonics through subduction zones, natural sedimentation and other processes. For our planet to evolve to its current state, it takes millions, not 6 thousand years to develop. Take the Hawaiian Islands for an example of this process. These islands were created by a hotspot under the earth's crust and as plate moves inches, maybe feet westward each year, so does the volcanic activity, thus creating each of its islands. I know we want the interpretation of the Bible to be a literal interpretation of God's word, but understand that the men who wrote the books of the Bible were from the mindset of that time, which did not have the science to illuminate God's creation, so we can better understand the beauty of its origin. Let's try to keep our minds open to possibilities. 

 

Science and the Bible do not oppose each other.

 

Carbon dating has slightly higher than ZERO accuracy in anything more than 50000 years, due to the half life of Carbon 14 - how about you do some genuine research into it. At less than 50000 years there are so many assumptions required that the accuracy you quote of 67% is an absolute made up figure (not by you necessarily, but by whoever you are quoting).

As to formation of geology etc, you might want to look at the region around Mt St Helens, where you will see geological structures which, according to some qualified geologists, are indistinguishable from such structures in may other places (Grand Canyon for instance), but they were OBSERVED IN REAL TIME to have formed in a matter of weeks, rather than "millions of years". Yet evolutionary scientists dismiss the Mt St Helens structures are being the aberration, claiming that the normal way is over great spans of time.

How is this scientific? True science is based in observation, and the plain fact is that the so called science that leads to a belief in millions of years is 100% speculation and 0% observation.

Add to this that there is no known natural biological mechanism to add information to DNA, and it has never been observed to happen (as per true scientific method), and therefore there is no scientifically acceptable way that evolution could possibly happen - if you put aside the speculation and storytelling that is normally associated with evolutionary teaching, and you are left with ABSOLUTELY NO RATIONAL REASON to accept either millions of years, or evolutionary theories.

Read the Bible.

Test what it says against genuine science, using true scientific method.

Ignore the so called experts who tell you to trust them.

They are no different to the Catholic priests throughout time who told people that the Bible was too difficult for the normal to understand and just to trust them.

This is exactly the argument that is used by so called scientists today - it is too difficult for a non-expert to understand so just trust me.

The Bible says to trust no-one, except God.

1 John 4:1
(1)  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
 

 

 

 

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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