Bring your guns to church

[JerryNumbers]

Guns, I have nothing against guns, I have nothing against people owing guns. I have nothing against guns in your home. If someone is breaking in your home, use your gun, I surely would not say nothing against doing so.

Guns in church is a no, no, as far as I'm concerned. I suppose the majority of people in Arkansas agree with me, concealed handguns are against the law in a church buildings in our state. So if you come to Arkansas do not wear your concealed handgun to church.

[Alimantado]

I've got a couple different points that I've been making, but I'll break them down.

1. My primary concern is safety reasons.... If a lunatic comes in brandishing a weapon and shooting, a person who is not highly trained may try to shoot the individual, and hit somone in the pew behind or beside the individual...

2. If every household had a gun, I guarantee you that accidental deaths would go up... I've known families where children were killed playing with a friend's dad's gun...

3. The comparison between guns and cars is silly. Guns are designed to kill people. That is their only purpose. Cars are designed as transportation. There is no comparison there. You can compare guns and knives, that is a fair comparison, but it breaks down because guns are much more deadly than knives are. Many people could not get to church without cars. Cars are necessary in our society, guns are not.

4. GUns make it very easy for those wanting to carry out intentional killings to do so...

Thanks for breaking it down, Kind of Blue. To respond to each:

1. I just couldn't see it happening to be honest. I'd imagine most people not shooting at all for fear they would hit someone else. From what I hear in our sensationalist media, lots of people do carry guns in parts of the US and furthermore there have been shootings at churches. But I've never heard a story where lots of people got hit by 'friendly fire'. I think you credit people with too little common sense. If I was a vicar, I'd trust people who carry arms during their comings and goings to be responsible when entering my church.

2. Not significantly. In fact, when I compared gun ownership per capita with rate of accidental firearm deaths in both the US and the UK, the relationship appeared to be linear. So I extrapolated to get a rate of accidental firearm deaths that was as high as the rate of road deaths and in doing so gun ownership rose to over a dozen guns per person. In reality, I suspect the death rate would level out way before then (non-linear) and that the rate of accidental deaths caused by firearms would always remain extremely low. Lower in fact, than lots of other things you could do something about if you wanted to improve health and safety in your church.

3. Comparing guns and cars isn't silly when we are talking about health and safety because nothing is designed to accidentally kill people! Therefore, when looking at health and safety, an object's purpose is irrelevant, because we are interested in what they are not designed to do.

I agree we would then accept a higher death rate for more essential things (e.g. cars) than for non-essential things (e.g. guns) but my argument is that the death rate for roads is already something we embrace and are happy with; after all, we could do much more about it if we wanted. So why then start worrying about something that carries a much lower risk of accidental death (demonstrably)? Organise a shuttle bus for your congregation and teach the kids to cross the roads properly. Then start worrying about guns in church.

This'll be my last post on health and safety and guns, btw, but I will read your response if you post one.

Ta

Carl

[Alimantado]

I admit I'm having real trouble reconciling some of the comments made on here. Jerry:

I suppose if y'all had of been Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you would have been carrying a sword along with you while saying, I'm really trusting only in God to deliver me...

...Guns, I have nothing against guns, I have nothing against people owing guns. I have nothing against guns in your home. If someone is breaking in your home, use your gun, I surely would not say nothing against doing so.

My problem here is that I could see the former statement being used as an argument against the latter. What's the difference between carrying a gun on your person and having one in your home when in both cases you have protection in mind?

To John:

My story is a minor thing, many other Christians have went into far more dangerous places and have faced as deadly and deadlier lost folks. They carried no weapons, they relied upon the Lord for their protection...

...I have nothing against guns. They have their place and uses. As Christians, Scripture should be our guide with regards to guns. Neither you or anyone else should rely upon another for protection. God is our shield and protector.

Your first comment that I have quoted seems to negate any place for guns whatsoever, but you say that there are places for guns. Again, I'm having trouble reconciling those two things.

And finally, John said that the discussion had gone far away from the question about guns in church. So my question is: does Scripture apply differently within and without church?

[JerryNumbers]

The church house and the property sets on is a sacred place. It is a place to worship the Lord thy God, it is a very special place. After all its a place where one of Jesus' Churches come together to worship God, sing praises to God, give thanks to God, study and learn about God, pray for our loved ones and those who are sick, as well as to hear God's Word proclaimed by one of His called.

Besides that, as I previously stated, its against the law to bring a gun into a church house in the state of Arkansas, as for me I think its a good law, besides that, we ought to obey those in authority over us as long as it does not make us sin against God, not carrying a gun to church is not a sin against God.

[Guest Guest]

I guess the only question I have for you here Jerry is' date=' Are you still drawing your income from disability(social security)? If you are then you yourself are relying on one of those worldly things instead of fully trusting in God to provide for you. So are you still living on SSI? Inquiring minds want to know how your faith is doing since you are intent on questioning everybody else's faith. Beam and mote comes to mind in this case.[/quote']
Sir,
Just so you know, you've just committed the tu quoque logical fallacy.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[Guest Guest]

Not when it comes to matters of faith' date=' IMO. I recognize there is a difference, but I do not see how they differ when it comes to [b']if I have enough Faith in God.

Lets examine:

Wearing seatbelt. Do I trust God with my life? Yes, but I wear my seatbelt. Could wearing one be mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my life? You bet.

Locking doors at night: Do I trust God to keep me safe from intruders? Sure, but I lock my doors at night. Could locking my doors be mis-construes as a sign that I do not trust God for my protection? You bet.

Going to the Doctor: Do I trust that God can and will heal me of my ailments? Sure, but I go to the Doctors when I get them. Could going to the Doctor's be mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my health? You bet.

Carrying a gun: Do I trust God to protect me and my family from harm from a person who intends to kill us? Sure, but I carry a gun as a means of protection. Is my carrying a gun being mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my and my families protection? You bet.

You are many more times more likely to (a) be in a car accident ( be sick and © have someone intrude your houses, I would daresay, than be in an opportunity where you would (so you think) need to blow someone away.

I don't mind men (emphasis here) carrying guns, to a point. I just get very much concerned when they seem to put more trust in them than in God.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[JerryNumbers]

He brings that up at every opportunity, he can't stand it that I've got a birth defect that puts quite a bit of pressure on my brain stem, its kind of a ongoing personal attack that has been taking place off and on for a couple of years.

[trc123]

I guess the only question I have for you here Jerry is, Are you still drawing your income from disability(social security)? If you are then you yourself are relying on one of those worldly things instead of fully trusting in God to provide for you. So are you still living on SSI? Inquiring minds want to know how your faith is doing since you are intent on questioning everybody else's faith. Beam and mote comes to mind in this case.

Precisely what I was trying to get through to him in a more subtle approach in my email concerning trusting the Father as Jesus stated in how he feeds the birds and clothes the flowers. But I didn't put it bluntly enough apparently.

[trc123]

Jerry, A similar personal attack to those you make against people you disagree with at every opportunity?

[Alimantado]

You are many more times more likely to (a) be in a car accident ( be sick and © have someone intrude your houses' date=' I would daresay, than be in an opportunity where you would (so you think) need to blow someone away.[/quote']
It looks like you're saying here that trust should be placed in God for the outcome of the less risky things but not the things that are "...many more times more likely..." to happen. If that's not what you're saying, I don't understand what relevance the degree of risk you've just identified has to do with anything.

[Revelation3:20]

The church house and the property sets on is a sacred place. It is a place to worship the Lord thy God, it is a very special place. After all its a place where one of Jesus' Churches come together to worship God, sing praises to God, give thanks to God, study and learn about God, pray for our loved ones and those who are sick, as well as to hear God's Word proclaimed by one of His called.

Surely a church is no more sacred than the tabernacle. Indeed, it could be argued that a church it is far less sacred than the temple or tabernacle now that God indwells each believer.

I Kings 28-31 Then tidings came to Joab: for Joab had turned after Adonijah, though he turned not after Absalom. And Joab fled unto the tabernacle of the LORD, and caught hold on the horns of the altar. And it was told king Solomon that Joab was fled unto the tabernacle of the LORD; and, behold, he is by the altar. Then Solomon sent Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, saying, Go, fall upon him. And Benaiah came to the tabernacle of the LORD, and said unto him, Thus saith the king, Come forth. And he said, Nay; but I will die here. And Benaiah brought the king word again, saying, Thus said Joab, and thus he answered me. And the king said unto him, Do as he hath said, and fall upon him, and bury him; that thou mayest take away the innocent blood, which Joab shed, from me, and from the house of my father.

You see that Solomon had no scruples about killing a wicked man in the tabernacle when the situation called for it. Solomon was the wisest of the wise and remember that this was early in Solomons reign when his heart was still perfect before God too. There were also weapons stored in the temple which were later used to help set up one of the kings of Israel. I do indeed find it strange that you would find it acceptable for a Christian to defend himself from lawbreakers at home but not at church.

[Colin Stolzer]

He brings that up at every opportunity, he can't stand it that I've got a birth defect that puts quite a bit of pressure on my brain stem, its kind of a ongoing personal attack that has been taking place off and on for a couple of years.

It's not a personal attack, I just get tired of hearing how righteous you believe you are, when you yourself aren't living what you are preaching to others. Let me be blunt, it's called hypocrisy.

Sir,
Just so you know, you've just committed the tu quoque logical fallacy.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

He isn't even consistent in his own argument in this matter, on one hand he says you should be able to defend yourself or family(home), but that same doesn't apply in other places. Why does the place change the obligation and responsibility I have to my family?
It gets old listening to Jerry tell other how they lack in their walk with God, when he should worry about the beam in his own eye first. Matt 7:3-5

[Alimantado]

I think he's talking about an 'e-mail' (forum post) to Jerry, not you.

[Colin Stolzer]

Thanks Alimantado, I edited my previous post.

[Guest Guest]

It looks like you're saying here that trust should be placed in God for the outcome of the less risky things but not the things that are "...many more times more likely..." to happen. If that's not what you're saying' date=' I don't understand what relevance the degree of risk you've just identified has to do with anything. [/quote']
The other part of my post you quoted explains this, sir.

Could you provide the context for that quote, please? Thank you. :smile
In Christ,
Crushmaster.