Members ascund Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Greetings I am a firm believer in eternal security (Once Saved; Always Saved). I would like to answer your questions regarding troublesome passages that many think imply that one can lose their eternal security. May the LORD bless these exchanges! Dr. Olson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinmiller Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Umm...I don't think anyone here thinks that they can lose their salvation. :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ascund Posted January 31, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Great! Glad to hear that you aren't once such person. However, in spite of your reservations, I'll continue to make myself available to those who might be having troubles in this area as I noted in the first post. Dr. Olson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dwayner79 Posted January 31, 2007 Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Perhaps a better approach would be to outline some of those "troublesome" passages with your hermeneutical discourse on why they do not, in fact, promote the ability to lose your salvation. You can start with the Hebrews 6 passage and the unpardonable sin. I am sure the discussion will go from there. Welcome to OLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ascund Posted January 31, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hey dwayner79 Good suggestion. The Hebrews 6 warning is one of the hottest passages in this arena. Before I dive into the passage in question, I feel that an overview of the Book is vital. The context of the book is that of Jewish Christians contemplating leaving Christianity (or perhaps they already had) due to the intense Roman persecutions. Next, what is the author saying throughout the book? We can catch the author's idea of security by examining his treatment of Jesus Christ's ministries. (1) Jesus is our High Priest (3:1) who purged (1:3) and made reconciliation for sins (2:17-18). His work is so complete that He SAT DOWN. No more will He get up to make a sacrifice for sins. (2) Jesus is the Surety (7:22) of the New Covenant. When believers fail, Jesus supplies what is lacking. (3) Jesus is the Mediator (8:6) of the New Covenant. As a representative of both parties, He is able to negotiate a win-win settlement. (4) Jesus is the Finisher (12:2) of our faith. He finishes the nudge of faith instrumental to the new birth. He is faithful to deliver what He promised (Heb 10:23). (5) Jesus will never ever leave or forsake us (13:5). This gets even better when we see that He never changes (13:8). (6) Jesus is the great Shepherd (13:20). If one of the sheep drift away, rebel or apostatize in some other way, Jesus goes after that sheep and brings it home (Luke 15:4-6)! With this overarching view, we must see that the author will not say "YES" and "NO" to OSAS in the same book. The terrible warning passages must integrate with the author's overarching view of Christ's sufficiency. Hebrews 6 is best understood by way of three thoughts: the word IMPOSSIBLE, the farmer's burning of the field, and the word BETTER. The word IMPOSSIBLE relates to the context. Jewish Christians have their minds so made up about escaping Roman persecution, that it is impossible to have them change their mind about Christianity. This is a worst case scenario and only makes OSAS the more certain. If we take the word "IMPOSSIBLE" to its natural conclusions, then Christianity becomes a one-shot option. It will be impossible to restore people who so turn their backs on Christ. This wayward view of the word "IMPOSSIBLE" nullifies repentance, forgiveness and restoration. The natural conclusions of the word "IMPOSSIBLE" should help us see that eternal life is not the subject of the passage. Secondly, the author uses a farmland analogy. The farmer (GOD) was nigh unto cursing the thorns as he burned the field (6:8). However, if one gives up on a field, then why work it? The farmer is burning the field to prepare it for the next year's crop. He is keeping the field! Thirdly, the word "BETTER" tells us that those who stay with Jesus get a better reward than those who turn their back on Him. The word "BETTER" is a comparative word - not a contrasting word. Both groups receive a similar category reward. One group does not get something categorically different than the other group. The difference is not with respect to destiny. The difference is with respect to rewards. This worst case scenario never uses words such as "lost," "damned," "perishing," "hellfire," or the like. If the author believed in NOSAS, then he missed many opportunities to say so. Instead, he teaches about BETTER rewards and encourages us to better works. This warning teaching about rewards; not security. Dr. Olson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 If your great at teaching once saved always saved, seem like you ought to find some of those who don't believe this and teach it to them, they surely need such teachings very much. Or is that your way of starting a topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doc H Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Dr Olson, Do you believe in Dispensational Salvation? DocH (MD not PhD or DD). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lettheredeemedsayso Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 My pastors have always taught me to focus on the truth. A preacher taught me years ago that the best way to spot a counterfiet is to know the genuine article. When people are trying to recognize a counterfiet currency they don't study the counterfiet they study the genuine bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ascund Posted February 1, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Dr Olson, Do you believe in Dispensational Salvation? - DocH Hi DocH First, I'm against Dispensational Salvation on the basis of vague terminology. Since salvation is the overarching term of justification and sanctification, one must be very careful in how it is used. Cults twist its overarching nature into a specific application of sanctification redefined as justification. The sixth council of Trent is such an example of theological heresy. I'm against a vague use of the word "salvation" in discussions of theology. Keep it for the simple gospel message of Christ and His righteousness (Rom 1:16,17). I know of at least two definitions of Dispensational Salvation. Please tell me which one you are asking about. Secondly, in general, I'm against dispensational salvation because Eph 4:5 claims that there is but one faith. Heb 4:2 also teaches that the OT saints had the same gospel that we have. Paul used Father Abraham as an example of justification by faith fitting for all who believe in Jesus whether or not they are circumcized. Peter use Noah. Jesus used the murmuring Israelites in the wilderness. The Promised Seed was given immediately after Adam's sin. Ever since then, salvation has been only and soley by God's grace by way of faith in the Promise Seed. While I believe in dispensational theology, I'm dead set against dispensational salvation. I think the term "dispensational salvation" is used by opponents of dispensationalism (who do not understand biblical teaching on dispensationalism) as a theological cuss word. Dr. O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doc H Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hi DocH First, I'm against Dispensational Salvation on the basis of vague terminology. Since salvation is the overarching term of justification and sanctification, one must be very careful in how it is used. Cults twist its overarching nature into a specific application of sanctification redefined as justification. The sixth council of Trent is such an example of theological heresy. I'm against a vague use of the word "salvation" in discussions of theology. Keep it for the simple gospel message of Christ and His righteousness (Rom 1:16,17). I know of at least two definitions of Dispensational Salvation. Please tell me which one you are asking about. Secondly, in general, I'm against dispensational salvation because Eph 4:5 claims that there is but one faith. Heb 4:2 also teaches that the OT saints had the same gospel that we have. Paul used Father Abraham as an example of justification by faith fitting for all who believe in Jesus whether or not they are circumcized. Peter use Noah. Jesus used the murmuring Israelites in the wilderness. The Promised Seed was given immediately after Adam's sin. Ever since then, salvation has been only and soley by God's grace by way of faith in the Promise Seed. While I believe in dispensational theology, I'm dead set against dispensational salvation. I think the term "dispensational salvation" is used by opponents of dispensationalism (who do not understand biblical teaching on dispensationalism) as a theological cuss word. Dr. O Dr O, Thanks for making your position clear. How do you explain Mt 13:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" This is a verse commonly cited by those who do not believe OSAS and also Catholics who believe in works salvation? I would be interested in your thoughts simply by refering to Scripture in the light of dispensations. I already know what the 'Biblical' scholars say in their commentaries, let's just stick to Bible. Doc H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 That's a really good question, Doc H...I'd love to hear what it means! :) Another verse that people struggle with is Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. So if we can't lose our salvation, does this verse mean it's possible for some people to lose their salvation? Like in the Tribulation, possibly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Madeline Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hi KJB_Princess! [quote="KJB_Princess"] That's a really good question, Doc H...I'd love to hear what it means! :) Another verse that people struggle with is Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. So if we can't lose our salvation, does this verse mean it's possible for some people to lose their salvation? Like in the Tribulation, possibly? [/quote] It is impossible for a truly regenerated child of God to lose her/his salvation. Here is a passage similar to the one you posted. Exodus 32:33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hey Madeline..thanks for replying! I still find it very interesting...that these Scriptures seemingly support dispensational salvation. (Not saying that I believe in dispensational salvation...it's still one of those things I'm not sure about) Most dispensationalists teach that people in the Old Testament could lose their salvation. They also teach that people in the Tribulation could lose their salvation. If a person's name is blotted out of the Book of Life, it means they can't enter the Holy City. Once a person goes to Heaven, they can't sin...so there's no way they'd be cast out of the Holy City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samer Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 [quote="KJB_Princess"] That's a really good question, Doc H...I'd love to hear what it means! :) Another verse that people struggle with is Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. So if we can't lose our salvation, does this verse mean it's possible for some people to lose their salvation? Like in the Tribulation, possibly? [/quote] Who will be clothed in white raiment? Whose name won't be blotted from the book of life? He that overcometh! 1 John 5:4 [b]For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.[/b] 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: [b]because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[/b] John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; [b]I have overcome the world.[/b] We overcome by what Christ has done. Jesus Christ is our "works salvation." This truth also appies to the "endureth to the end" verses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bakershalfdozen Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Kathie, Most dispensationalists? You'll find that there are many different forms of dispensationalism. Most dispensationalists I know believe that the dispensations are simply different eras in God's timetable. The church age is different from the period of the Law but salvation has always been by faith in God. Noah believed God, Abraham believed God, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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