Psalm 46:9-10 and the bogus bibles

[brandplucked]

Psalm 46:9-10 King James Bible -

"He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth THE CHARIOT in the fire. BE STILL, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth."

"He burneth the CHARIOT in the fire." The word here for "chariot" is 5699 gagah-lah, and is variously translated in the KJB as "chariot, wagon, or cart." "He burneth the CHARIOT IN THE FIRE" is the reading found in the following Bible translations: Coverdale 1535, Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, the Revised Version 1881, American Standard Version 1901, RSV 1952, NKJV 1982, ESV 2001, Holman Standard 2003, Green's, Darby, Amplified, Hebrew Names Version, the Jewish Publication Society 1917 translation, the 1936 Hebrew Pub. Company version, Lamsa's translation of the Syriac, the KJV21, Third Millenium Bible and the Spanish Reina Valera.

However the NIV, NRSV, NET and Catholic Douay versions read: "he burns THE SHIELDS in the fire." The reading of "shields" comes from the Greek LXX.

Notice that the RSV read "chariots", then the NRSV went to "shields", but then the 2001 ESV revision of the revision of the revision went back to "chariots". Ya gotta love it.

Daniel Wallace's wild and wooly NET version reads: "he shatters the bow and breaks the spear; he burns the SHIELDS with fire. He says,

[kevinmiller]

He burneth the CHARIOT in the fire." The word here for "chariot" is 5699 gagah-lah, and is variously translated in the KJB as "chariot, wagon, or cart." "He burneth the CHARIOT IN THE FIRE" is the reading found in the following Bible translations: Coverdale 1535, Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, the Revised Version 1881, American Standard Version 1901, RSV 1952, NKJV 1982, ESV 2001, Holman Standard 2003, Green's, Darby, Amplified, Hebrew Names Version, the Jewish Publication Society 1917 translation, the 1936 Hebrew Pub. Company version, Lamsa's translation of the Syriac, the KJV21, Third Millenium Bible and the Spanish Reina Valera.

Just a simple question; what "Greek" are you referring to here? If the Greek (a) does not exist, or ( is not reliable, then perhaps the NIV has it right? How do you know it should be translated "chariot" without that Greek?

[brandplucked]

Just a simple question; what "Greek" are you referring to here? If the Greek (a) does not exist, or ( is not reliable, then perhaps the NIV has it right? How do you know it should be translated "chariot" without that Greek?

Uh, Kevin. This may come as a shock to you, but the Old Testament was not originally written in Greek at all, but Hebrew.

"perhaps the NIV has it right". Yeah, maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Who knows for sure? Who really cares, anyway? Right?
Have a great day.

Will

[kevinmiller]

Sorry, I wasn't thinking about it being the OT since most of the discussions are generalized by just saying "Greek." It applies to Hebrew as well.

"perhaps the NIV has it right". Yeah, maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Who knows for sure? Who really cares, anyway? Right?

Cop-out.

[kevinmiller]

Okay Will, I honestly want to know; what texts are you using there?

In one thread you say that the originals don't exist and that they all contradict each other. Yet in this thread you use them to prove your point. Which is it?

[brandplucked]

Okay Will, I honestly want to know; what texts are you using there?

In one thread you say that the originals don't exist and that they all contradict each other. Yet in this thread you use them to prove your point. Which is it?

Hi Kevin. Good question. I do believe in the preservation of the true and complete words of God. God did it through a variety of the Hebrew Masoretic texts (they are not all the same) and He did it through a variety of the Traditional Greek texts which He providentially directed the King James Bible translators to use. I believe He also gave them insight into the correct meanings of these texts for the English language.

All modern versions often reject the clear Hebrew readings and all modern seminarians (except those who are KJB only) believe that the Hebrew Scriptures have been corrupted. This is why they all so often reject the Hebrew, and pervert the Greek with their fantasy about the so called "oldest and best" manuscripts, that not even they themselves consistently follow.

So, Yes I do often use textual support for the KJB, but you can go round and round these issues for ever and not solve much of anything. It is the Truth, the Absolute Truth of the King James Bible that God uses to bring some of His people to recognize and believe that only the King James Bible is the true word of God.

Do I think that most of God's English speaking people will come to recognize the absolute Truth of the KJB and will in turn reject the bogus bibles so popular today? No, I do not. The Bible itself tells us that there will be a falling away from the faith before the reuturn of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory and power. This is happening now. However there are still some who have ears to hear and God is still working among His people to reveal the truth of His Book - the King James Holy Bible. You will find many of them here at this board.

All of grace,

Will K

[kevinmiller]

Hi Kevin. Good question. I do believe in the preservation of the true and complete words of God. God did it through a variety of the Hebrew Masoretic texts (they are not all the same) and He did it through a variety of the Traditional Greek texts which He providentially directed the King James Bible translators to use. I believe He also gave them insight into the correct meanings of these texts for the English language.

Biblical and/or factual basis?

All modern versions often reject the clear Hebrew readings and all modern seminarians (except those who are KJB only) believe that the Hebrew Scriptures have been corrupted. This is why they all so often reject the Hebrew, and pervert the Greek with their fantasy about the so called "oldest and best" manuscripts, that not even they themselves consistently follow.

Okay, if you now admit that there are at least accurate Hebrew source texts, is it not logical to assume that if a person were to accurately and faithfully translate that Hebrew, we would have another good Old Testament Bible?

So, Yes I do often use textual support for the KJB, but you can go round and round these issues for ever and not solve much of anything. It is the Truth, the Absolute Truth of the King James Bible that God uses to bring some of His people to recognize and believe that only the King James Bible is the true word of God.

You use textual support that you claim elsewhere is irrelevant.

And you are wrong. God uses the absolute truth of the BIBLE to bring people to REPENTENCE and a knowledge of Him, not to bring people to the KJV. Post one verse that has the KJV mentioned in it.

Do I think that most of God's English speaking people will come to recognize the absolute Truth of the KJB and will in turn reject the bogus bibles so popular today? No, I do not. The Bible itself tells us that there will be a falling away from the faith before the reuturn of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory and power. This is happening now. However there are still some who have ears to hear and God is still working among His people to reveal the truth of His Book - the King James Holy Bible. You will find many of them here at this board.

That verse refers to a falling away of faith in God, NOT faith in the KJV. Really, your use of Scripture and your interpretation of it astonishes me. Since when did the KJV become more important than the Bible itself?

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(Romans 1:25)
Sounds kind of like what is happening in the KJVO movement doesn't it?

[GlenBurnieMD]

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(Romans 1:25)
Sounds kind of like what is happening in the KJVO movement doesn't it?

No, it doesn't.

Talk about lifting verses out of context! Let's see what it says...
Ooops I used the "it" word.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So acording to Kevin's hypothesis, KJVO's are about midway into the slide of depravity. That means KJVO's are willfully supressing knowledge of God in their lives. They have rejected all efforts by God to show them the truth of His glory and instead have turned to false Gods and idols. As a result of this KJVOs are living perverted lives and are just down right nasty people with rebrobate minds who secretly enjoy their rebellion against a holy God.

Is this really true about us?

[kevinmiller]

Is that the best response you could give to the whole post? I was using it as an analogy, I wasn't referring to the context. It seems to me that the rabid KJVO crowd is putting the KJV above the Bible itself and worshipping the creature(KJV) more than the Creator(God).

[brandplucked]

Is that the best response you could give to the whole post? I was using it as an analogy, I wasn't referring to the context. It seems to me that the rabid KJVO crowd is putting the KJV above the Bible itself and worshipping the creature(KJV) more than the Creator(God).

Kevin, you are missing a huge point. We do not place our faith in the KJB above the Bible. The fact is, the King James Bible IS the Bible. Our faith is in the God of the Bible who promised again and again that His words would not pass away.

Your side - the "No Bible is Inspired or Infallible" side - has placed your faith in the "scholars" who disagree constantly with each other, who all tell us that many portions of the Scriptures have been lost or corrupted (but they can't agree among themselves as to which parts), and none of whom believes that any Bible or any written texts in any language are now the complete and true words of God.

You were at first at least nominally behind the idea that the KJB is the pure and perfect words of God, but as we all can see, the more you post the more your virulent anti- KJB beliefs are coming through.

Will K

[kevinmiller]

Kevin, you are missing a huge point. We do not place our faith in the KJB above the Bible. The fact is, the King James Bible IS the Bible. Our faith is in the God of the Bible who promised again and again that His words would not pass away.

Maybe I am. It just seems that you have your focus more on the KJV than what is in it.

Your side - the "No Bible is Inspired or Infallible" side - has placed your faith in the "scholars" who disagree constantly with each other, who all tell us that many portions of the Scriptures have been lost or corrupted (but they can't agree among themselves as to which parts), and none of whom believes that any Bible or any written texts in any language are now the complete and true words of God.

You misrepresent me yet again. You misrepresent my "side" as well. You see, we do not believe that there is no Bible that is Inspired or Infallible, we simply believe that the directly inspired Bible was in the Greek and Hebrew.
And I don't believe that there aren't any texts that the complete Word of God. The fact is, I believe that there is more than one Bible that is the true Word of God including the Greek and Hebrew.

You were at first at least nominally behind the idea that the KJB is the pure and perfect words of God, but as we all can see, the more you post the more your virulent anti- KJB beliefs are coming through.

It's so easy to take cheap shots isn't it? This is just classic. If you can't prove your argument, you attack the character of your opponent.
I am not anti-KJV. I am anti-false teachings.

[chev1958]

Ahem, fellas, this is your second warning to play nice. Don't make me stop this car and take you out in the woods ..... :lol:

[John81]

Can an accurate translation be made without God inspiring the translators to enable them to provide the true Word of God in that translation?

[Jerry]

God inspired the words of the Bible, not the translators, nor the prophets (He spoke through them, but it was the words, not the writers, that were inspired) - therefore if the words in that language are true to the preserved texts, then they (the words) are still inspired.

[John81]

God inspired the words of the Bible, not the translators, nor the prophets (He spoke through them, but it was the words, not the writers, that were inspired) - therefore if the words in that language are true to the preserved texts, then they (the words) are still inspired.

It may be we are trying to say the same thing.

Could the translators make their translation accurately without God's help?

Could any human, Christian or not, properly translate the Word of God without divine guidance or inspiration?

One of the problems I have with some of the MVs is so many of the translators were obviously out of the will of God. That being the case, how could they be trusted to accurately translate the Holy Word of God?