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The Rapture


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Matthew 25 describes the separating of the sheep and goat nations which takes place at the end of the Tribulation' date=' [/quote']

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:

The living Unsaved are cast into hell with the previous dead unsaved until the GWT, there is no Judgment of the unsaved at this time.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead (previous dead) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The only Judgment that takes place at this time is of the "Righteous" for "REWARDS".

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. (live/reign during the MK)





I assume this..."is not".. is a mistype.




As long as people are "in the flesh", they are going to sin, and "God's precept" of dying in the day they sin won't change, only a "Glorified Body" (sinless) can survive a "thousand years".

Righteous people will live/die during the MK, and be resurrected at the GWT, "all must appear before Jesus", from every age.



I always consider them one event. :bonk:



Zec 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

I've heard this "Very age" interpreted as being 4-5 maybe 600 years old before dying, no doubt man's life span will increase, how much, I don't know.
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Sorry about my typo. Missed that somehow.

When Jesus judges the sheep and goat nations, it is a judgment based on what they did with Him (ie. salvation) and what they did with His brethren - no, it is not a judgment for their works yet, but is still a judgment.

In the Bible, the first and second resurrections are clearly separated - one is for the righteous and one is for the lost. There is no mention anywhere that the second resurrection will include any righteous. It is a judgment to determine punishment for those rejecting Christ. The true believer has no place in that judgment.

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In the Bible, the first and second resurrections are clearly separated - one is for the righteous and one is for the lost.


Right, the "first "resurrection" is when Jesus returns, the "Second resurrection" at the GWT.



There is no mention anywhere that the second resurrection will include any righteous. It is a judgment to determine punishment for those rejecting Christ. The true believer has no place in that judgment.


The MK is between the "First resurrection" and the "Second Resurrection", those who live during the MK are not included in the "first resurrection", these are the "Righteous" who are resurrected with the "Goats" to stand Judgment in the "Second resurrection" at the GWT.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
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The MK is between the "First resurrection" and the "Second Resurrection", those who live during the MK are not included in the "first resurrection", these are the "Righteous" who are resurrected with the "Goats" to stand Judgment in the "Second resurrection" at the GWT.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;


Let's not mix the judgments up.

2 Corinthians 5 is referring to the church, and the judgment seat of Christ is after the rapture - this is only for the saved of this dispensation. The Great White Throne judgment is only for the lost - all the lost who ever lived.

Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This is referring to when Jesus comes back to earth after the Tribulation, not after the Millenium. The lost are cast into Hell, and the saved are allowed into His millenial kingdom (hard to enter it after it is over).

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is an interesting parallel passage:

Romans 2:6-7 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Perhaps those saved (at this judgment of the nations) will enter the millenium immortal, but not glorified (though the church will be glorified). They can still have children but will not die.
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and it is foolish for any of us to make doctrine or interpret doctrine by what we don't know.

I agree, but that's not what is happening here.

Firstly, the whole theory of yours stems from some belief that no one who is saved will die in the MK. I don't think scripture bears that out. I think if you asked 100 Christians to read Isaiah 65:20 that you would be hard pressed to find very many who interpret it as "no Christians die".

Secondly, as Me4Him has stated (so I won't go into detail) it is very conceivable (from the text) that the resurrection of the dead at the end of Rev. 20 does indeed include the saved.

The fact that they were saved is obvious because they were allowed into the MK. They've been judged to have accepted the free gift of God, given in His grace, which is Christ Jesus. So they would be appearing before God (in heaven, to which they had no access previously) being judged for their works for Him.

Perhaps those saved (at this judgment of the nations) will enter the millenium immortal' date=' but not glorified (though the church will be glorified). They can still have children but will not die.[/quote']

Look to your first quote in this response for you answer! :Bleh
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You two are the first people (other than those with unsound theology - and I am NOT saying this about you) that teach that there are saved at the Great White Throne Judgment. All the books and commentaries I have ever read and sermons I have ever heard teach that it is only the lost that will be judged there - and I believe that, regardless of your interpretation of Isaiah 65, Revelation 20 and other passages teach that the resurrection of the lost is completely separated from the resurrection of the just - and there is no indication in Revelation 20:11-15 that anyone other than lost will be there. If this is right, and Revelation 20:4-6 describes the resurrection of the just, there is nowhere in verses 11-15 for the just to also be resurrected - which certainly implies no more will die after the start of the Millenium (Ie. if there is no other resurrection of the saved, then there cannot be any more saved that die past that point in time).

I do not expect you to agree with me just because I say so - however, I think I am standing on good ground if all the other sound commentators and teachers (that I have read) throughout history stood in the same place.

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Really?

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
Re 20:12
12. the dead--"the rest of the dead" who did not share the first resurrection, and those who died during the millennium.
small and great--B has "the small and the great." A, Vulgate, Syriac, and ANDREAS have "the great and the small." The wicked who had died from the time of Adam to Christ's second advent, and all the righteous and wicked who had died during and after the millennium, shall then have their eternal portion assigned to them. The godly who were transfigured and reigned with Christ during it, shall also be present, not indeed to have their portion assigned as if for the first time (for that shall have been fixed long before, Joh 5:24), but to have it confirmed for ever, and that God's righteousness may be vindicated in the case of both the saved and the lost, in the presence of an assembled universe. Compare "We must ALL appear," &c. Ro 14:10; 2Co 5:10. The saints having been first pronounced just themselves by Christ out of "the book of life," shall sit as assessors of the Judge. Compare Mt 25:31-32,40, "these My brethren." God's omniscience will not allow the most insignificant to escape unobserved, and His omnipotence will cause the mightiest to obey the summons. The living are not specially mentioned: as these all shall probably first (before the destruction of the ungodly, Re 20:9) be transfigured, and caught up with the saints long previously transfigured; and though present for the confirmation of their justification by the Judge, shall not then first have their eternal state assigned to them, but shall sit as assessors with the Judge.


Geneva Bible Footnotes
Re 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before 22God; and the 23books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book 24of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
22. That is, Christ the judge; 2Co 5:10.

23. As it were, his books of reckoning or accounts, that is, the testimony of our conscience, and of our works, which by no means can be avoided.

24. The book of the eternal decree of God, in which God the Father has elected in Christ according to the good pleasure of his will, those that shall be heirs of life. This also is spoken according to the manner of men.


Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
Re 20:15

The Universal Judgment.
A. D. 95.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The utter destruction of the devil's kingdom very properly leads to an account of the day of judgment, which will determine every man's everlasting state; and we may be assured there will be a judgment when we see the prince of this world is judged, Joh 16:11. This will be a great day, the great day, when all shall appear before the judgment-seat of Christ. The Lord help us firmly to believe this doctrine of the judgment to come. It is a doctrine that made Felix tremble. Here we have a description of it, where observe, 1. We behold the throne, and tribunal of judgment, great and white, very glorious and perfectly just and righteous. The throne of iniquity, that establishes wickedness by a law, has no fellowship with this righteous throne and tribunal. 2. The appearance of the Judge, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, who then puts on such majesty and terror that the earth and the heaven flee from his face, and there is no place found for them; there is a dissolution of the whole frame of nature, 2Pe 3:10. 3. The persons to be judged (Re 20:12): The dead, small and great; that is, young and old, low and high, poor and rich. None are so mean but they have some talents to account for, and none so great as to avoid the jurisdiction of this court; not only those that are found alive at the coming of Christ, but all who have died before; the grave shall surrender the bodies of men, hell shall surrender the souls of the wicked, the sea shall surrender the many who seemed to have been lost in it. 4. The rule of judgment settled: The books were opened. What books? The books of God's omniscience, who is greater than our consciences, and knows all things (there is a book of remembrance with him both for good and bad); and the book of the sinner's conscience, which, though formerly secret, will now be opened. And another book shall be opened--the book of the scriptures, the statute-book of heaven, the rule of life. This book is opened as containing the law, the touchstone by which the hearts and lives of men are to be tried. This book determines matter of right; the other books give evidence of matters of fact. Some, by the other book, called the book of life, understand the book of God's eternal counsels; but that does not seem to belong to the affair of judgment: in eternal election God does not act judicially, but with absolute sovereign freedom. 5. The cause to be tried; and that is, the works of men, what they have done and whether it be good or evil. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; for though God knows their state and their principles, and looks chiefly at these, yet, being to approve himself to angels and men as a righteous God, he will try their principles by their practices, and so will be justified when he speaks and clear when he judges. 6. The issue of the trial and judgment; and this will be according to the evidence of fact, and rule of judgment. All those who have made a covenant with death, and an agreement with hell, shall then be condemned with their infernal confederates, cast with them into the lake of fire, as not being entitled to eternal life, according to the rules of life laid down in the scripture; but those whose names are written in that book (that is, those that are justified and acquitted by the gospel) shall then be justified and acquitted by the Judge, and shall enter into eternal life, having nothing more to fear from death, or hell, or wicked men; for these are all destroyed together. Let it be our great concern to see on what terms we stand with our Bibles, whether they justify us or condemn us now; for the Judge of all will proceed by that rule. Christ shall judge the secrets of all men according to the gospel. Happy are those who have so ordered and stated their cause according to the gospel as to know beforehand that they shall be justified in the great day of the Lord!


The People's New Testament Commentary
Re 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great. As we learn from Re 20:13 the dead of every land, of earth, and sea and hades deliver their dead and all come to judgment.
The books are opened. The records that contain all the deeds of men.

Another book. The book of life in which the names of the saints are recorded. From these books all are judged according to their works.


Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
Re 20:12
Ver. 12. The former verses gave us an account of Christ, the great Judge of the quick and the dead in the last day; the Lord Jesus Christ sat upon a throne of glory, about to execute his last holy and righteous judgment. Now he describes the persons to be judged, viz. all, both small and great.
And the books were opened: to show the justice and righteousness according to which this Judge would proceed, books are said to be opened. What books? The book of God's law; the book of God's omniscience; the book of men's consciences. In the former is contained what all men should have done; the two latter will discover what they have thought, spake, or done in the flesh.

And another other book was opened, which is the book of life; the book of life, mentioned Re 3:5, by which is to be understood the book of God's election, wherein are the names of all those who, being from eternity chosen to life, were redeemed with the blood of Christ, and afterwards effectually called, justified, and sanctified.

And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works; according to these books shall the last judgment be, Ro 2:16, with respect had unto every one's work.


John Wesley's Notes on the Bible
Re 20:12
Verse 12. And I saw the dead, great and small - Of every age and condition. This includes, also, those who undergo a change equivalent to death, 1Co 15:51. And the books - Human Judges have their books written with pen and ink: how different is the nature of these books! Were opened - O how many hidden things will then come to light; and how many will have quite another appearance than they had before in the sight of men! With the book of God's omniscience, that of conscience will then exactly tally. The book of natural law, as well as of revealed, will then also be displayed. It is not said, The books will be read: the light of that day will make them visible to all. Then, particularly, shall every man know himself, and that with the last exactness This will be the first true, full, impartial, universal history. And another book - Wherein are enrolled all that are accepted through the Beloved; all who lived and died in the faith that worketh by love. Which is the book of life, was opened - What manner of expectation will then be, with regard to the issue of the whole! Mal 3:16, &c.


Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Re 20:12
The dead, small and great - All ranks, degrees, and conditions of men. This description seems to refer to Da 7:9, Da 7:10.

And the books were opened - See Da 12:1. "Rab. Jehuda said: All the actions of men, whether good or bad, are written in a book, and of all they shall give account." - Sohar Gen., fol. 79, col. 298. "How careful should men be to shun vice, and to act uprightly before the holy blessed God, seeing there are so many which go throughout the earth, see the works of men, testify of them, and write them in a book!" - Ibid., fol. 105, col. 417.

"In the first day of the new year the holy blessed God sits that he may judge the world; and all men, without exception, give an account of themselves; and the books of the living and the dead are opened."

Sohar Chadash, fol. 19, 1.

The books mentioned here were the books of the living and the dead, or the book of life and the book of death: that is, the account of the good and evil actions of men; the former leading to life, the latter to death. St. John evidently alludes here to Da 7:10, on which the rabbinical account of the books appears to be founded. The expressions are figurative in both.

According to their works - And according to their faith also, for their works would be the proof whether their faith were true or false; but faith exclusively could be no rule in such a procedure.


Obviously I don't agree with all these men, but I sure don't think I am any way approaching this unsoundly.

Could I be wrong. Sure. I am able to admit that, I just haven't seen, in this instance, enough to overturn what I've read.

I always reserve the right to be wrong though! :cool
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Let's not mix the judgments up.

2 Corinthians 5 is referring to the church, and the judgment seat of Christ is after the rapture - this is only for the saved of this dispensation. The Great White Throne judgment is only for the lost - all the lost who ever lived.

Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This is referring to when Jesus comes back to earth after the Tribulation, not after the Millenium. The lost are cast into Hell, and the saved are allowed into His millenial kingdom (hard to enter it after it is over).

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



Let' try this, my hdrive with the links to my charts is disconnected at the moment.

1. Day of Christ, Rapture

2. Trib

3. Day of the Lord, Jesus return,
Angel cast living unsaved into hell, "rest of the (previous) dead live NOT", Jesus judges righteous give "rewards". (authority over ten/five cities)

4. MK

5. Satan loose

6. Day of God, GWT,

Hell gives up those who "lived not" (plus those angels cast into hell) until the thousand years was finished.


Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The GWT is the only time people will "come out" and receive "REST" from the torment of hell, then return for "everlasting punishment", no "rest".

14 And death and hell were cast (back) into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,

The GWT is the only time "both" Righteous/unRighteous appear together for Judgment, this doesn't occur in the "day of the Lord", Jesus return.
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