The Last Trump

[Me4Him]

I would state your premise is false and the scriptures about the timing of the Lord returns and the dead in Christ rising are consistent except with the timing of the 2nd death. I am premil because of the testimony of Jesus in rev 20. Daniel 12:2 & matt 25:26 don't imply a 1000 year gap. Either way we are going in circles

Randy

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: (Mill reign/Kingdom)

Did you know the scriptures gives a "SCHEDULE" for all "major events" to occur??

Can you read that schedule???

Jesus condemned those of his day for being able to read the signs of the sky, but not the "Signs of the "TIMES",

It wasn't just prophecied "WHERE" the Messiah was to be born but also "WHEN", but they couldn't read the sign of the "TIME".

As demonstrated by Israel, when you decide what you're going to believe before learning, you cut yourself off from the "TRUTH".

[Me4Him]

Me4Him said:



Answer this: do saints die right now under God hating regimes?

Why?

What's the difference is they die in the last 7 years and if they die now?

Does God not love the one's who die now?

Don't skirt these, answer them.

How can you compare:

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (again)

with the present world???

Can you name any time in history when the devil is given complete power over the world, it's people, so much so that "NO FLESH" would survive except Jesus returns???

Does Satan have this kind of power "TODAY"??

Saints are martyred today, but today's world is entirely different than what the trib will be,

Today satan is held back by one who is "GREATER", (comforter) but once "HE is taken out of Satan's way", the only "limits" on satan will be Jesus's returns.

Israel, as the "mother of Jesus" can't attend/be married to her "SON", (lambs marriage supper/Rapture)

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


they must become ....."DEAD"... to the law", born again, new creatures,


Ro 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth;

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another,

Using Satan as a "ROD", and turning their "FLESH" over to satan for it's destruction as "CHASTISEMENT", forcing them to "literally die" (drink of Jesus cup/crucify the old man/dead to the law) is the "STRIPES" in their flesh for refusing the marriage to the son.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus has already suffer the chastisement for the church, the reason it and the comforter are "taken out of the way".

As I said, you won't understand the rapture until you understand the tribulation,

and there's more doctrines that deal with the rapture, than people realize, as shown above.

[RandyW]

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: (Mill reign/Kingdom)

Did you know the scriptures gives a "SCHEDULE" for all "major events" to occur??

Can you read that schedule???

Jesus condemned those of his day for being able to read the signs of the sky, but not the "Signs of the "TIMES",

It wasn't just prophecied "WHERE" the Messiah was to be born but also "WHEN", but they couldn't read the sign of the "TIME".

As demonstrated by Israel, when you decide what you're going to believe before learning, you cut yourself off from the "TRUTH".

okey dokey

Randy

[speerjp1]

Here's a quote from the Q&A section of the most recent edition of the Berean Call Newsletter:

Question (A composite of many, many questions--too many to deal with singly--concerning the Rapture and the "last trump."): The sounding of the "last trump" very clearly calls the dead from their graves at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52). Since the Rapture and the resurrection of "those who sleep in Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) occur simultaneously, the "last trump" must signal the moment of the Rapture and would seemingly be heard by all the redeemed at that moment. Wouldn't the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15) be the "last trump," and wouldn't that tell us the time of the Rapture-i.e., the mid-point of the Great Tribulation?

Response: I can't say that the seventh trumpet, sounded by the seventh angel (Rv 11:15), occurs at mid-trib, much less that this marks the resurrection and Rapture of the saints. First Thessalonians 4:16 refers to the "trump of God" but does not identify it as the trumpet sounded by the seventh angel. A number of remarkable events are described as occurring when this seventh trumpet is sounded (Rv 11:15-19), but the resurrection and Rapture are not mentioned, which seems odd if they do occur at this time--nor do they seem to fit this timing.

The first three chapters of Revelation are about events happening to the church on earth. Then suddenly a "door is opened in heaven" (Rv 4:1) and John is commanded, "Come up hither...." That is the last we hear of the church on earth. From that time forward, the scene shifts to heaven except for the Second Coming, with which the Great Tribulation and Revelation both begin: "Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him..." (Rv 1:7).

There are numerous reasons for a pre-trib Rapture. Check the TBC reprints for more information on this subject.

[LindaR]

Here's a quote from the Q&A section of the most recent edition of the Berean Call Newsletter:

:thumb Thanks Bro!

[Me4Him]

Here's a quote from the Q&A section of the most recent edition of the Berean Call Newsletter:

The Seven Trumpets of Revelation are "Angels", but how many "Angels" have the authority to call the dead from the grave, as this "LAST TRUMP" will do, "NONE".

The "LAST TRUMP" is the "last time" the "VOICE OF THE COMFORTER" (Jesus) will speak, there wasn't a "comforter" in the OT and there won't be during the trib, Israel will go back under the "Law and Prophet" system they were under during the first 69 weeks to finish the 70th week.

Israel rejected the "voice of God" speaking directly to them at Mt sinai and again with Jesus, Israel prefers God send "prophets" to speak to them, the reason "Elijah/Moses" (Two witnesses) will appear during the trib.

The "Law and prophet" stopped when Jesus came and won't return until Jesus leaves. (last trump/Rapture)

Leadership by both God/Law and Prophets"---Jesus/comforter/Holy Ghost do not function at the same time, in the same time frame, the reason the L/P system stopped when Jesus came.

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain (God) both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

Jesus as the "Vine" doesn't bear Jew, he writher up the "fig tree", they won't hear his "Voice". (Comforter)

The "water" (Doctrine) Jesus gave the church is "easy" (fresh) to drink, we only "Spiritually" crucify the "body of sin", but that same "Water" will be "Salty" (hard to drink) for those in the trib, they have to be willing to "Literally" crucify the body of sin to have the testimony of Christ.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Turning their "FLESH" over to satan is God's chastisement for rejecting "HIM".(Jesus)

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The "comforter" comes and goes with the church.

[PreacherBen]

Me4Him,

I repeat:

Please answer this: Do saints die right now under God hating regimes?

Why?

What's the difference is they die in the last 7 years and if they die now?

Does God not love the one's who die now?

I realize the tribulation is the time of "Jacobs Trouble," but what about all the people who live on Earth who have nothing to do with Jacob, are they not being subject to tribulation also because God is calling Israel to repentance? Shouldn't the ultimate aim of God's plan, namely, redeeming Israel have the jewel of the church to turn to? Won't many come to Christ during the tribulation? Will they not baptize the converts and disciple them? Isn't that a church?

[Me4Him]

Me4Him,

I repeat:

Please answer this: Do saints die right now under God hating regimes?

Why?

What's the difference is they die in the last 7 years and if they die now?

Does God not love the one's who die now?

I realize the tribulation is the time of "Jacobs Trouble," but what about all the people who live on Earth who have nothing to do with Jacob, are they not being subject to tribulation also because God is calling Israel to repentance? Shouldn't the ultimate aim of God's plan, namely, redeeming Israel have the jewel of the church to turn to? Won't many come to Christ during the tribulation? Will they not baptize the converts and disciple them? Isn't that a church?

I believe many "Gentiles" will come to trust in the Lord during the trib, but it will be under the same conditions imposed on Israel, no exceptions.

The "Baptism" for these believers will be in their own blood as they're killed for believing.

Re 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Washed their "ROBE", the "Flesh" is a "ROBE" the souls wears, and willing to "shed the life/blood" of the flesh for a new one is a "Baptism in/by blood".

Mr 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? (his blood)

Basically, it's worship the AC or die, and I suspect many will be "Crucified" as the AC tries to make a "MOCKERY" of Jesus and believers. (Literally drink of Jesus's cup)

The world is put in the position of either "Crucifying the old man" and dying "literally", or worship the AC and die
"Spiritually".

Which is where we are today, except we don't have to "literally die for salvation", Jesus's "STRIPES" took care of that for "The Church", with his "BODY".

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,

The AC isn't going to allow a "Church" to exist, except the one he establishes, no Bibles, no buying/selling without his mark/number, no organizations he doesn't approve.

Your idea that a church existing as it does today is totally out of the question for the trib period, it's a time such as never been before or ever will be again.

Moses/Elijah will be the "Spiritual leaders" for Israel, Jews won't believe without "Signs and wonders", they'll repeat many of the OT signs and wonders, but the false prophet will also perform signs and wonders, "FAITH" will still decide which are from/of God.

The "Two sticks", House of Joseph/Ephriam, (Church) and the "house of Judah" (israel) won't be "joined together" into "ONE" until the MK, this is the marriage in "CANA", (on earth) during the MK. Israel can't attend the "lamb's marriage", (church rapture) but once they become believers during the trib, the "Breach" between them and God is healed, so they are present at the marriage in "CANA".

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A "Few" believers will physical survive the trib to enter the MK and produce children, since those resurrected don't marry.

Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem:

Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

[RandyW]

I believe many "Gentiles" will come to trust in the Lord during the trib, but it will be under the same conditions imposed on Israel, no exceptions.

The "Baptism" for these believers will be in their own blood as they're killed for believing.

Re 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Washed their "ROBE", the "Flesh" is a "ROBE" the souls wears, and willing to "shed the life/blood" of the flesh for a new one is a "Baptism in/by blood".

Mr 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? (his blood)

Basically, it's worship the AC or die, and I suspect many will be "Crucified" as the AC tries to make a "MOCKERY" of Jesus and believers. (Literally drink of Jesus's cup)

The world is put in the position of either "Crucifying the old man" and dying "literally", or worship the AC and die
"Spiritually".

Which is where we are today, except we don't have to "literally die for salvation", Jesus's "STRIPES" took care of that for "The Church", with his "BODY".

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,

The AC isn't going to allow a "Church" to exist, except the one he establishes, no Bibles, no buying/selling without his mark/number, no organizations he doesn't approve.

Your idea that a church existing as it does today is totally out of the question for the trib period, it's a time such as never been before or ever will be again.

Moses/Elijah will be the "Spiritual leaders" for Israel, Jews won't believe without "Signs and wonders", they'll repeat many of the OT signs and wonders, but the false prophet will also perform signs and wonders, "FAITH" will still decide which are from/of God.

The "Two sticks", House of Joseph/Ephriam, (Church) and the "house of Judah" (israel) won't be "joined together" into "ONE" until the MK, this is the marriage in "CANA", (on earth) during the MK. Israel can't attend the "lamb's marriage", (church rapture) but once they become believers during the trib, the "Breach" between them and God is healed, so they are present at the marriage in "CANA".

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A "Few" believers will physical survive the trib to enter the MK and produce children, since those resurrected don't marry.

Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem:

Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

Do you believe there be any christians alive at the 2nd coming? Will they be gathered up by the angels of God and changed in the twinkling of the eye? Do you believe at the 2nd coming the dead in Christ will come back with Jesus?

Randy

[Me4Him]

A "Few" believers will physical survive the trib to enter the MK and produce children, since those resurrected don't marry.

Do you believe there be any christians alive at the 2nd coming? Will they be gathered up by the angels of God and changed in the twinkling of the eye? Do you believe at the 2nd coming the dead in Christ will come back with Jesus?

Randy

My quote above answers your first question.

When Jesus returns all souls of the "deceased Righteous" return with with him, there are no righteous souls still in the grave, the OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the rapture church, both dead/living, those killed during the trib and "under the altar", "ALL" return from Heaven with Jesus.

"NO SOUL" comes out of a grave in the "FIRST" Resurrection, (Remember the definition) the unsaved dead, stay dead.

In the Rapture, Jesus is the reaper, gathering "FIRST" the "Righteous"
Jesus's return, Angels are the Reapers, gathering "FIRST" the "TARES".

These reaping are the opposite of the other, it's obvious, both can't occur at the same time.

[RandyW]

My quote above answers your first question.

When Jesus returns all souls of the "deceased Righteous" return with with him, there are no righteous souls still in the grave, the OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the rapture church, both dead/living, those killed during the trib and "under the altar", "ALL" return from Heaven with Jesus.

"NO SOUL" comes out of a grave in the "FIRST" Resurrection, (Remember the definition) the unsaved dead, stay dead.

In the Rapture, Jesus is the reaper, gathering "FIRST" the "Righteous"
Jesus's return, Angels are the Reapers, gathering "FIRST" the "TARES".

These reaping are the opposite of the other, it's obvious, both can't occur at the same time.

Flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom promised by God. So how can any believer not changed live forever in that kingdom? What scripture do you read that teaches what you stated about those left alive at the 2nd coming arn't clothed with immortality? Don't you think that the basis of Pauls teaching about those left alive at the 2nd coming, that is they would be caught up into the air and changed?
Randy

[PreacherBen]

Me4Him, you said:

The AC isn't going to allow a "Church" to exist, except the one he establishes, no Bibles, no buying/selling without his mark/number, no organizations he doesn't approve.

Your idea that a church existing as it does today is totally out of the question for the trib period, it's a time such as never been before or ever will be again.

Jesus said:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Paul said:

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

You have a very limited view of the annointed bride! She is glorious, she is resiliant, she doesn't need a building at 123 Main Street, with buses, Sunday School rooms, and a Fellowship Hall. She does well in caves, basements, apartments, the woods, etc.

The "Two sticks", House of Joseph/Ephriam, (Church) and the "house of Judah" (israel) won't be "joined together" into "ONE" until the MK, this is the marriage in "CANA", (on earth) during the MK. Israel can't attend the "lamb's marriage", (church rapture) but once they become believers during the trib, the "Breach" between them and God is healed, so they are present at the marriage in "CANA".

Amazing speculation! I thought all who come to Christ are made a member of His body.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

[Me4Him]

You have a very limited view of the annointed bride! She is glorious, she is resiliant, she doesn't need a building at 123 Main Street, with buses, Sunday School rooms, and a Fellowship Hall. She does well in caves, basements, apartments, the woods, etc.

"SHE" is not here on earth during the trib, "SHE" is kept by the "COMFORTER", and as long as the "Comforter" is present in the world, Satan can 'NEVER" prevail over "Believers".

"Everything" satan does during the trib, Jesus/scriptures says Satan "CAN NOT" do with the "Comforter" present.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

You won't find Satan "Fleeing from Saints" during the trib, but attacking and killing.

The "Two sticks", House of Joseph/Ephriam, (Church) and the "house of Judah" (israel) won't be "joined together" into "ONE" until the MK, this is the marriage in "CANA", (on earth) during the MK. Israel can't attend the "lamb's marriage", (church rapture) but once they become believers during the trib, the "Breach" between them and God is healed, so they are present at the marriage in "CANA".

Amazing speculation! I thought all who come to Christ are made a member of His body.

Neither Israel or anyone else is part of the "body of Christ" until they become "Believers",

and that doesn't occur for Israel until the trib, the last week of the 70 determined for Israel/Jerusalem, not the church.

BTW, I don't "Speculate", unless it's noted.

[PreacherBen]

"SHE" is not here on earth during the trib, "SHE" is kept by the "COMFORTER", and as long as the "Comforter" is present in the world, Satan can 'NEVER" prevail over "Believers".

"Everything" satan does during the trib, Jesus/scriptures says Satan "CAN NOT" do with the "Comforter" present.

This is an example of presumptive reasoning. Where is the proof text to prove the Comforter is removed during the tribulation. Not another theory, but a scripture.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Great verse, but completely out of context of application. And besides, where was the Holy Spirit when the martyrs were torn to shreds, burried alive, fed to wild beasts, sawed in two, etc.?

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

You won't find Satan "Fleeing from Saints" during the trib, but attacking and killing.

Just as he is doing now, but the believer is given grace for trials and tribulation.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [i know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

God never promised we would not suffer tribulation, now or in the end. Neither did he say the Comforter would leave. It is subjective reasoning to say He is leaving based on subjective interpretation of II Thess. 2:7. All the verse reveals is what it says, some insist it means the Holy Spirit, but you have no scripture to support that view.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

An objective, honest interpretation of that text reveals only what it says, "...he who now letteth [will let]..." nothing more, nothing less. One must inject their speculation into this verse in order to come up with the Comforter being taken away.

[Me4Him]

Flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom promised by God. So how can any believer not changed live forever in that kingdom? What scripture do you read that teaches what you stated about those left alive at the 2nd coming arn't clothed with immortality? Don't you think that the basis of Pauls teaching about those left alive at the 2nd coming, that is they would be caught up into the air and changed?
Randy

Those who survive the trib will enter the MK in their "physical bodies", they won't have "Glorified bodies" as will those "Resurrected",

and people will "Live/Die" during the MK, there'll be children born, "OLD" men/Women.

Those resurrected don't marry, but will live and "REIGN" over the population of the earth during the MK.

No one is "caught up" at Jesus's second coming, he comes all the way to the earth and remains here for the MK.

The "caught up" is only at the rapture.