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2 Thessalonians 2:2-6?


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I know I will get accused of being a jerk again for this statement, but it needs to be said. This is a KJVonly website. We believe in the exact wording of the KJV and base all our doctrine upon it. If any interpretation must be made by changing the wording to suit a theory, then that theory is wrong. If the passage has to be changed to say what you are trying to say, then you are wrong.

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Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

That makes it pretty plain that it is talking about the Holy Spirit as a person, not His influence.


:amen:
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This passage is one of the best passages of scripture in regards to a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. The key is in verse 7. ?For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.? I do not need Greek to understand an English Bible. My bible says "taken" which means just that, the ?he? is referring to the one that now letteth, which is the one that is holding back the revealing of the ?Wicked? one in verse 8. The ?he? is either the Holy Spirit or the Church, either way, seeing that the Tribulation period is when God pours out His wrath on an unbelieving world, the church will not be here for ?1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,? So, we can conclude that this passage states that there will come a day of apostasy before the anti-Christ is revealed but before that can happen the church must be raptured out of here ushering in the 7 years of tribulation.

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I do not need Greek to understand an English Bible.


:amen: to that too. I certainly don't mind the greek if it clarifies the english but sometimes I think we can go overboard. No point trying to clarify a clear passage. No offence though :frog Grace and peace...
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Can an Omnipresent spirit be removed? Where would it go?


Madeline, my point about Pentecost is simply, where was the Holy Spirit before? He could not come unless Christ ascended. He was not on the earth at that time. Now, there were cases when the Spirit of God came upon men, but He did not stay. He returned to heaven. So, the same once His presence is removed.

Isn't it possible that it will be the same during the tribulation?

We will be raptured because we have the seal of the Spirit upon us. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our seal. He goes, we go. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit upon the earth now that hinders the work of Satan in placing anti-christ. Once the presence is gone, Satan will have free course.
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The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. Plz correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see:::::::::::::::

#1. He is omnipresent. Jesus is not; He is at the right hand of the Father. God the Father is not either; He is in Heaven.

#2. When people are getting saved/converted/born-again/etc. it is the Holy Spirit doing that work whether it be O.T. economy, N.T. economy, Tribulation, Millenium, or whatever.

#3. Where the influence of the Holy Spirit is, there He is also. He is inseparable from it.

#4. Since time began the H.S. has been holding Satan back, or witholding him from going too far, or having free ciourse. (((The trials of Job are a good example.)))

#5. During the Tribulation the H.S. will let Satan go much farther, but even then he (Satan) will not be allowed to wreak all the havoc he would like to. If he had unlimited, carte blanche, blank cheque authority to do as he pleased, there would be no living thing left on earth at all. God will shorten those days, else there would be no flesh left alive.

So then, He (the Holy Spirit) is still here on earth but just pulled back from withholding Satan from doing his nefarious deeds.

Comments, plz. :lol

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All three members of the Trinity are omnipresent. Obviously Jesus' body is in Heaven, but these verses indicates His omnipresence:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

His body was then on earth, but part of Him was still in Heaven.

These verses implies His omnipresence:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Psalm 139 deals with God being omnipresent.

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All three members of the Trinity are omnipresent. Obviously Jesus' body is in Heaven, but these verses indicates His omnipresence:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

His body was then on earth, but part of Him was still in Heaven.

These verses implies His omnipresence:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Psalm 139 deals with God being omnipresent.


Thanx for pointing that out, Jerry. It does make a whole lot more sense, too, the way you say it. :Green Especially so, since all three are one and inseparable, even though they are three distinct persons, with three different offices. I do know that the Trinity is so complex that the minute we think we have it all figured out, we've missed something. :lol
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Madeline, my point about Pentecost is simply, where was the Holy Spirit before? He could not come unless Christ ascended. He was not on the earth at that time. Now, there were cases when the Spirit of God came upon men, but He did not stay. He returned to heaven. So, the same once His presence is removed.

Isn't it possible that it will be the same during the tribulation?

We will be raptured because we have the seal of the Spirit upon us. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our seal. He goes, we go. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit upon the earth now that hinders the work of Satan in placing anti-christ. Once the presence is gone, Satan will have free course.


His presenceis removed? God is OMNIPRESENT, and you should know that an Omnipresent being is present everywhere. "Omnipresence" and "presence removed" are complete contradictions. To state that the Holy Spirit would somehow absent from the earth would posit a contradiction concerning one of the immutable attributes of God. I don't know how much clearer I can get...it's common sense. This passage is speaking of the termination of the Spirit's present, special restraining ministry - not to His absence. He is omnipresent. Additionally, He continues to indwell believers, even during the Tribulation. The Greek phrase here "out of the way" does not necessitate a complete absence of His presence. Instead, it indicates that the Spirit, who often preforms the function of the invisible Restrainer, will allow behavior on earth during the Tribulation of a type and to a degree which He presently is not allowing. The HS can come and go a million time if He chooses, but His presence will remain.

Love,
Madeline
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Old Testament saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Can God NOT go back to pre-pentecost ways of working?

I re-ask my question: Where was the HS in pre-pentecost days? He DID NOT dwell in man. He occassionally came upon them.


As I alluded to in my previous post, when the Holy Spirit of God saves someone He also indwells them, past, present and future whether it be O.T., N.T. Trib., Millenium, or whatever. Jesus promised to send the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) to the disciples after He was gone. We remember that the disciples were already saved, but this a new economy, and the Holy Spirit would fulfill a new office of empowering the believers. Consider the prophets of the O.T. economy of whom John the Baptist was the last one. We read in the Gospels how the Holy Spirit of God empowered him for the task he performed. However, now in the New Testament economy the Holy Spirit empowers all believers.

Hope this helps. :lol
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Old Testament saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Can God NOT go back to pre-pentecost ways of working?

I re-ask my question: Where was the HS in pre-pentecost days? He DID NOT dwell in man. He occassionally came upon them.


The Spirit is omnipresent, but He can also exercise a more intense, more vibrant, more sustaining presence locally. God is everywhere (Acts 17:28). The sending of the Spirit thus refers to the new empowerment of believers by the Spirit from Pentecost onward whereby we have the "indwelling" of the Spirit, a far more intense presence of the Spirit than most Old Testament believers experienced. And this presence can intensify too, for we know that some believers were noting for being "filled" with the Spirit (cf. Acts 6:5), and we are told to "be filled" with the Spirit (Eph.5:18). Also, the gender of the Spirit in 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, the Spirit is a "He" even is sometimes He is referred to as "it" (because wind and spirit are neuter in Greek). During the Tribulation "He moves out of the way" - not that He is still not present in the sense of His omnipresence, but He moves out of the way of the devil, the beast, and their followers and allows the events of the Tribulation to take place. Were He continuing His ministry of restraint, the Tribulation would be impossible - and that would make the second advent impossible too. So while we regret the removal of His influence during those dark days to come, like the pains of a woman in labor, we understand that the trouble has to come first if we are going to experience the new birth of resurrection when our Lord Jesus returns. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline
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So are we going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed. It seems to be saying that.That is what is confusing me?


It means that the day of the Lord, (1st resurrection, 2nd coming) won't be before that event. The angel of the abyss is locked up thats what is holding these events back. The man of lawlessness doesn't rise or fall by human power. There are christians beheaded because they refuse the mark of the beast. Gods Holy Spirit doesn't have to go anywhere as the many false miracles produced will deceive the world, (non christians), into following the beast.

Randy
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The Spirit is omnipresent, but He can also exercise a more intense, more vibrant, more sustaining presence locally. God is everywhere (Acts 17:28). The sending of the Spirit thus refers to the new empowerment of believers by the Spirit from Pentecost onward whereby we have the "indwelling" of the Spirit, a far more intense presence of the Spirit than most Old Testament believers experienced. And this presence can intensify too, for we know that some believers were noting for being "filled" with the Spirit (cf. Acts 6:5), and we are told to "be filled" with the Spirit (Eph.5:18). Also, the gender of the Spirit in 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, the Spirit is a "He" even is sometimes He is referred to as "it" (because wind and spirit are neuter in Greek). During the Tribulation "He moves out of the way" - not that He is still not present in the sense of His omnipresence, but He moves out of the way of the devil, the beast, and their followers and allows the events of the Tribulation to take place. Were He continuing His ministry of restraint, the Tribulation would be impossible - and that would make the second advent impossible too. So while we regret the removal of His influence during those dark days to come, like the pains of a woman in labor, we understand that the trouble has to come first if we are going to experience the new birth of resurrection when our Lord Jesus returns. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline


Does the Bible mean the Spirit came upon them or not in the Old Testament when it says the Spirit came upon them? In Acts 2, does the Bible say the Spirit filled them or not? It either says it came upon them or KJV is wrong there. It either says it filled them at Pentecost or KJV is wrong.

My point is not that the Spirit is NOT ominpresent. My point is that I believe that HE will be taken out of the way. That's the Spirit himself and us in whom He dwells. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this, but my take is that He will return to the work he did before Christ came upon the earth. I think the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore which is not the same as ours.
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