Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

2 Thessalonians 2:2-6?


Recommended Posts

  • Administrators

Along these lines, I've noticed over the past year or so more folks who were staunch believers in pre-trib are now saying their studies have led them to believe pre-trib is wrong and pre-wrath is actually what Scripture teaches.

I'm not sure if this is just a little thing or the beginning of another shift.



John - I'm not going to get into this discussion, although it is interesting reading - I just wanted to inject that I think it is actually part of the shift to reformed theology. Reformed theology is making a big inroad into IFB churches, as well as elsewhere, and I think it accompanies that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 181
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Members




John - I'm not going to get into this discussion, although it is interesting reading - I just wanted to inject that I think it is actually part of the shift to reformed theology. Reformed theology is making a big inroad into IFB churches, as well as elsewhere, and I think it accompanies that.


Does Reformed teach pre-wrath? Does this have anything to do with the resurgence of Calvinism among Baptists (and others)?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Pre-wrath is not exactly the same as mid-trib. Basically, they teach it is the sixth seal that starts God's wrath, so they believe the rapture will occur prior to that time (which may be after the midpoint, depending on exactly when the 6th seal is opened). The funny thing is, the whole seven years is a time of God's wrath. You can confirm that by comparing Luke 21 with Isaiah 13 and Ezekiel 21.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (They try to teach that this is referring to the rapture)

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The events that these people were seeing before they were taken from them are declared to be the pouring of God's wrath - not something that comes after they are off the scene.

Ezekiel 21:7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members



When your "understanding" leads you to reject orthodox IFB/Bible teachings, and yet you come on and IFB message board holding to those teachings, then yes, that is heresy.


Your "orthodox" teachings on prophecy only go back as far as Scofield and Darby, In England, they were only held from the 1830s by Darby's Plymouth Brethren.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
It's just proof that people are foolishly led astray by the many false teachers and prophets that they place their trust and faith in over the Word of God - the same heretics that make millions deceiving people over the radio and television taking advantage of the recent world events that have shaken so many.

I fully agree. So many folk spend more time with "Christian" radio & TV than ever they spend listening to sound Biblical preaching that we have to work hard to correct them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members


Okay, twice is enough........in case you were unaware......and OBviously you are......IFB is an acronym for Independent FUNDAMENTAL Baptist. Understanding that you are an independent FREE baptist helps me understand your heretical views as I can only assume that "FREE" to you means that you are free to interpret the scriptures however you or any fool who you have sat under the teaching of chooses to, regardless of scriptural and historical accuracy.

Thanks for the correction. There is no need to be offensive.

Jhn 8:31
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I believe futurehope was referring to this passage:

Titus 3:10-11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

It's really amazing how much of the OT you have to throw out to believe your doctrine. The books of Moses, passages out of Samuel to Chronicles, the Psalms, all the prophets, witness to Christ's literal future kingdom and restoration of the nation of Israel. For those who care, I could give literally dozens and dozens of passages - including full chapters - to show this. Don't let these Preterists steal your Bible and its hope from you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

10 Avoid an heretical man This is properly added; because there will be no end of quarrels and dispute, if we wish to conquer OBstinate men by argument; for they will never want words, and they will derive fresh courage from impudence, so that they will never grow weary of fighting. Thus, after having given orders to Titus as to the form of doctrine which he should lay down, he now forbids him to waste much time in debating with heretics, because battle would lead to battle and dispute to dispute. Such is the cunning of Satan, that, by the impudent talkativeness of such men, he entangles good and faithful pastors, so as to draw them away from diligence in teaching. We must therefore beware lest we become engaged in quarrelsome disputes; for we shall never have leisure to devote our labors to the Lord's flock, and contentious men will never cease to annoy us.

When he commands him to avoid such persons, it is as if he said that he must not toil hard to satisfy them, and even that there is nothing better than to cut off the handle for fighting which they are eager to find. This is a highly necessary admonition; for even they who would willingly take no part in strifes of words are sometimes drawn by shame into controversy, because they think that it would be shameful cowardice to quit the field. Besides, there is no temper, however mild, that is not liable to be provoked by the fierce taunts of enemies, because they look upon it as intolerable that those men should attack the truth, (as they are accustomed to do,) and that none should reply. Nor are there wanting men who are either of a combative disposition, or excessively hot-tempered, who are eager for battle. On the contrary, Paul does not wish that the servant of Christ should be much and long employed in debating with heretics.

We must now see what he means by the word heretic. There is a common and well-known distinction between a heretic and a schismatic. But here, in my opinion, Paul disregards that distinction: for, by the term "heretic" he describes not only those who cherish and defend an erroneous or perverse doctrine, but in general all who do not yield assent to the sound doctrine which he laid down a little before. Thus under this name he includes all ambitious, unruly, contentious persons, who, led away by sinful passions, disturb the peace of the Church, and raise disputings. In short, every person who, by his overweening pride, breaks up the unity of the Church, is pronounced by Paul to be "heretic."

But we must exercise moderation, so as not instantly to declare every man to be a "heretic" who does not agree with our opinion. There are some matters on which Christians may differ from each other, without being divided into sects. Paul himself commands that they shall not be so divided, when he bids them keep their harmony unbroken, and wait for the revelation of God. (Php 3:16.) But whenever the OBstinacy of any person grows to such an extent, that, led by selfish motives, he either separates from the body, or draws away some of the flock, or interrupts the course of sound doctrine, in such a case we must boldly resist.

In a word, a heresy or sect and the unity of the Church

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So, I am denounced as a heretic for believing that when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in about AD 50, his prophecy concerning the temple of God was referring to the temple of God still standing, but under the Lord's condemnation.

So much for literal understanding of Scripture.

Paul met the man of sin when he went to the temple for the last time to worship, & only the intervention of the Romans saved his life. His words were the solemn sentence of God against an antichrist, if not THE antichrist.

Act 23:1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Then you simply have no clue what the Bible teaches.

Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24; 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation all mention a future temple which the Antichrist will desecrate in the midst of his seven year reign.

Ezekiel mentions a millennial temple and gives specific dimensions for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Then you simply have no clue what the Bible teaches.

Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24; 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation all mention a future temple which the Antichrist will desecrate in the midst of his seven year reign.

Ezekiel mentions a millennial temple and gives specific dimensions for it.

Daniel is prophesying 70 weeks (490 years) which ended around AD 33. After the Messiah had finished his work all that remained was the destruction of the temple & the city, a prophecy Jesus confirmed.

Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 21) is clearly prophesying the AD 70 destruction - the judgement on "this generation."

2 Thessalonians 2 is prophesying the destruction of the then existing Jerusalem temple.

Ezekiel says nothing about a millennium, though the promises to Israel could be understood as millennial promises. However, animal sacrifices are a feature of the temple worship so it cannot be a literal temple.

There is no suggestion of restored temple of God worship in the NT. If a new Jerusalem temple is built it would be a deliberate insult to Christ, & could not be a temple of God. Any sacrifices would be anathema.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Then you simply have no clue what the Bible teaches.

Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24; 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation all mention a future temple which the Antichrist will desecrate in the midst of his seven year reign.

Ezekiel mentions a millennial temple and gives specific dimensions for it.


Daniel 9: 24-27 does not mention an antichrist, but the Messiah. Matthew 24; Luke 21 and Mark 13 all tell us "VerilyI say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things shall be done." Mark 13:31.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...