Pastoral Authority.

[Madeline]

Ok, just note that this is just one persons judgement of a particular church, and if it is indeed accurate, it is nothing anyone here is endorsing. :tum I agree that controlling pastors exist, but I think we should be cautious in labeling a pastor "controlling" just because he endorses a particular standard that we may not agree with.

Who said anyone here was endorsing it? Who's labeling a pastor "controlling?" I'm not sure what your argument is? Or are you just trying to show me how you're more right than I am. :duh

***edited***

[LAF]

Ok, just note that this is just one persons judgement of a particular church, and if it is indeed accurate, it is nothing anyone here is endorsing. :tum I agree that controlling pastors exist, but I think we should be cautious in labeling a pastor "controlling" just because he endorses a particular standard that we may not agree with. I have seen stiffnecked people do that to many times.

No its not just my observation I know several people who feel this way about this particular church .In this type of a group most of the churches are like this ,if not all of them .

Its not a standard its more than that .

[Guest Guest]

Who said anyone here was endorsing it? Who's labeling a pastor "controlling?" I'm not sure what your argument is? my response was to the post I quoted.

Fine, the title of the thread is "pastoral authority" and the discussion overall has centered around how much authority a pastor should have. Some have said that if the pastor holds a standard the congregation should not try to defer at all and have stated that that the pastors position on a standard should have no more bearing than the position of any other member(ie. the pastor has no authority to guide the church direction at all). Nothing personal, I am sorry if I failed to make myself clear. :Green

[Guest Guest]

No its not just my observation I know several people who feel this way about this particular church .In this type of a group most of the churches are like this ,if not all of them .

Its not a standard its more than that .

Ok, I have seen churches that I felt were "boot licking" and man following to. :frog I wouldn't join a church like that. That just happens to be a example of abuse of pastoral authority. If the pastor was humble the problem would be self correcting. There are abuses at either extreme. For every church that is "man following", there is another that disregards and rejects anything the pastor says they don't happen to like, both are unbiblical.

[LAF]

Ok, I have seen churches that I felt were "boot licking" and man following to. :frog I wouldn't join a church like that. That just happens to be a example of abuse of pastoral authority. If the pastor was humble the problem would be self correcting. There are abuses at either extreme. For every church that is "man following", there is another that disregards and rejects anything the pastor says they don't happen to like, both are unbiblical.

Yes I agree with you on that

[JJJ4given]

As is clear from any careful study of the Bible which on every page appeals to the free will of all human beings, and as I try to make clear, free will is what the human race is all about: it is why we are here and it defines everything of importance in our existence, individual and collective. We are here to make good choices in response to the will of God, not to have other people make decisions for us. ...

If other people were supposed to make them for us, there wouldn't be any further reason for us to be here at all. :2cents

Love,
Madeline

Are you renouncing those reformed views you held onto? That would be cool. :clap:

[JerryNumbers]

Let me give an example. I was reading a sermon by a pastor, he made the comment, If my deacons did what Brother So & So deacons did, I would fire everyone of them.

A New Testament Church's pastor does not have that authority.

Someone made the comment like this a long time back on this board, if a Sunday School teacher did that the pastor ought to fire him.

Pastor has not that authority.

We have one Baptist church here in our town, I know the pastor of it all my life. He has no deacons, he says none qualify, but that's not true. His problem is he does not want to share no authority. For he is and has always been the authority in that church since he built it and no one else has any say so.

I'll grant one thing to him, he is a worker. But sadly, he has run off many members because he is a dictator. If he had not run off so many member, I feel sure he would have 200 + members at this time if not more, instead of from 30 to 50.

And yes, I'm positive he has run off many member, they have talked with me about this.

Standards. We all are all different levels in our walk with God. Some who have been in church a long time, may well be at a lower level than some one who has been in church for a shorter time. And we should never expect new members to hold to standards that older Christians may hold to.

We can't expect everyone to hold to the utmost standard. And the pastor has no right forcing, demanding his standard on anyone.

But he has the right to preach what God leads him to preach, and thru this preaching hopefully the church members will grow, as they grow it ought to show in the inside as well as on the outside of the church members, as well as by what comes out of their mouth.

[Madeline]

There are two variables here not one, yielding four possible scenarios not two. Three of these are non-biblical and spiritually dangerous.

1. Pastor sets false standards, then micromanages the lives of individuals in the congregation.
2. Pastor sets true standards, then micromanages the lives of individuals in the congregation.
3. Pastor sets false standards, but does not micromanage the lives of individuals in the congregation.
*4. Pastor sets true standards, and does not micromanage the lives of individuals in the congregation.

Only the last scenario is biblical and healthy. A pastor should set standards, and should do so through his teaching of the scriptures where the true standards reside. Making up things which are not in the Bible (and all sermonizing leads to this of necessity it seems) and preaching false standards from the pulpit (or false emphasis, like being hyper-compulsive about dress, diet, and marital status to the exclusion of everything else in the Bible) is wrong and spiritual dangerous, but it is not as bad as then getting involved in the details of everyone's life for the sake of "accountability". We are accountable to the Lord, not to human beings. his is the "freedom" we have in Christ, and it is a wonderful thing as long as we use it for the Lord and not, as Peter and Paul say, as a shield for bad behavior (Gal.5:13; 1Pet.2:16). We have been given this freedom, given a conscience, given the guiding ministry of the Holy Spirit in order to make our own good decisions for the Lord -- not to hand our free will over to someone else who cannot have a true clue as what God has for us individually (and so will of necessity make the wrong decisions for us).

Even if a pastor is really teaching the Bible and doing so in the correct manner, putting out true standards from the "rightly divided" Word of truth, it is still a big mistake to micromanage the lives of congregants. That is of course because we are here in this life to make our own decisions for Jesus Christ, and even if we do "good things" only because we are being manipulated into them or coerced into them or out of guilt and pressure from oversight it is not going to do anything positive for us spiritually but it most definitely WILL make us weaker spiritually. Just as children have to be expelled from the nest at some point and begin to make their own decisions, so it is with all Christians. We will never grow and accomplish what the Lord wants us to do if we are essentially handing over our free will to somebody else.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

Making up things which are not in the Bible (and all sermonizing leads to this of necessity it seems)

I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences with preaching - but you are unfair to lump all preaching/sermons together. Perhaps it would do you good to find a church where the Word of God is preached soundly from the pulpits - then you wouldn't use such all-inclusive statements when referring to sermons. Just as there are SOME sound men of God out there, so too there are SOME sound sermons being preached by these same men.

[JerryNumbers]

There are two variables here not one, yielding four possible scenarios not two. Three of these are non-biblical and spiritually dangerous.

1. Pastor sets false standards, then micromanages the lives of individuals in the congregation.
2. Pastor sets true standards, then micromanages the lives of individuals in the congregation.
3. Pastor sets false standards, but does not micromanage the lives of individuals in the congregation.
*4. Pastor sets true standards, and does not micromanage the lives of individuals in the congregation.

Only the last scenario is biblical and healthy. A pastor should set standards, and should do so through his teaching of the scriptures where the true standards reside. Making up things which are not in the Bible (and all sermonizing leads to this of necessity it seems) and preaching false standards from the pulpit (or false emphasis, like being hyper-compulsive about dress, diet, and marital status to the exclusion of everything else in the Bible) is wrong and spiritual dangerous, but it is not as bad as then getting involved in the details of everyone's life for the sake of "accountability". We are accountable to the Lord, not to human beings. his is the "freedom" we have in Christ, and it is a wonderful thing as long as we use it for the Lord and not, as Peter and Paul say, as a shield for bad behavior (Gal.5:13; 1Pet.2:16). We have been given this freedom, given a conscience, given the guiding ministry of the Holy Spirit in order to make our own good decisions for the Lord -- not to hand our free will over to someone else who cannot have a true clue as what God has for us individually (and so will of necessity make the wrong decisions for us).

Even if a pastor is really teaching the Bible and doing so in the correct manner, putting out true standards from the "rightly divided" Word of truth, it is still a big mistake to micromanage the lives of congregants. That is of course because we are here in this life to make our own decisions for Jesus Christ, and even if we do "good things" only because we are being manipulated into them or coerced into them or out of guilt and pressure from oversight it is not going to do anything positive for us spiritually but it most definitely WILL make us weaker spiritually. Just as children have to be expelled from the nest at some point and begin to make their own decisions, so it is with all Christians. We will never grow and accomplish what the Lord wants us to do if we are essentially handing over our free will to somebody else.

Love,
Madeline

If one is holding to a certain standard for the pastor, there is no reward.

We need to follow Jesus because.
1. We love Him.

2. We want to do those things which please Him.

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:6 (KJV)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:2-3 (KJV)

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:22 (KJV)

10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:10 (KJV)

And how can a born again believe who understand that Jesus gave His life for them on the cross not want to do those things which are pleasing to Jesus?

I believe they will as they learn what He expects out of them, they want know that unless they study the Bible and learn to divide the Word of truth.

But it seems some want to apply standards by force to do as they do and or they tell them to do.

I suppose some of them print up small book, maybe a large book even, containing what is expected, dressing standard, of them by their pastor. Perhaps where certain ones can sit too.

[Jerry]

Here is another passage on our response to pastors:

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.