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Pastoral Authority.


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For the sake of the argument, let's say you are right and 1 Timothy IS referring to elder Christians ruling their homes. That still leaves other passages about elders/pastors ruling the church - so your point is moot anyway.

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For instant, the pastor don't tell the church who to have for a revival service, its the churches choice. Most churches do not know who to call, most pastors set up revival services.

The pastor don't tell the church who is going to be the song leader. Why not?
The pastor does not tell he church which missionary or missionaries to support and how much money to support a them with. He can suggest and ask for a vote

The pastor does not tell the church who is going to be their teachers. Teachers volunteer anyway.

The pastor does not tell the church, this is the way services are going to be held. Yes, he does.

The pastor does not tell the church who will be their deacons. Scripturally this is done by the church, this is correct, as long as qualifications are met.

The pastor does not expel a member. He helps do Matt 18

The pastor of deacons, or board does not accept members They tell the church who needs to be accepted


The pastor does not tell the church I'm going to handle the money and make all money decisions. This one I agree with fully

The pastor does not tell the church, I'm going to build us a new church. Again, he can suggest that God has told him and ask for a vote
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For the sake of the argument' date=' let's say you are right and 1 Timothy IS referring to elder Christians ruling their homes. That still leaves other passages about elders/pastors ruling the church - so your point is moot anyway.[/quote']


Quite right. However, the verse that JJJ gave an explanation for has been entirely ripped from it's context. The verse about elders who rule well and giving them double honor is an express desire to pay church leaders. Furthermore, Paul commanded...Timothy or Titus, I forget which one right now, to ordain elders(plural) in every city when he started a church. Obviously, elders is a term for church leadership.
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I haven't really followed much of the discussion besides the first few pages of the thread. On this issue of pastoral authority, I do think that what guidance we have from the New Testament is all consistent on the point of the pastor, pastor/teacher, bishop, teaching elder, lead-elder - or whatever one would wish to call such a man - as being deserving of the respect and responsiveness of the congregation on the one hand (1Tim.5:17; Heb.13:17; cf. 1Cor.16:16; 1Thes.5:12), and also of owing a unique measure of responsibility to the Lord for diligence in teaching on the other (1Tim.4:6; 4:14-16; 5:17; 2Tim.4:2; Tit.1:9; 1Pet.5:1-4). No matter how a group or a church might choose to officially structure things, because of the way that human beings are made and thus how human groupings always and inevitably work out, in any group large or small there will always emerge a definite leader/leadership, even if the "constitution" of the organization demands the perpetuation of the fiction that there is not one. In a group which is definitely dedicated to learning and living the Bible as the fundamental purpose for their existence and assembly, then the person who ends up taking on the lion's share of the teaching duty and does so effectively will become the de facto spiritual leader of that group, even if there is another titular head. Everything else is semantics. In my view, scripture anticipates this principle perfectly, and that is why there are really no definitive organizational structure given for the governance of local churches (even though there are numerous opportunities to provide one) beyond giving the canons for behavior of those who will lead (pastors/teachers/elders) and those who will assist the leadership in administrative roles (deacons). In the biblical conception, those who teach the Word are the pastors/teachers/elders (and one man will always come to be at the very least the primus inter pares - the "first among equals", even if not given the title); those who engage in administration (i.e., "call", work on and implement policy which reflects the teaching, engage in outreach ministries, do funerals and weddings, meet with new members, deal with financial considerations, decide on bulletins, preach "sermons") are the deacons. As we can no doubt see from this description, most of our local churches in this country at present have deacons running the show with no true "elder" or "pastor-teacher" even present, at least in the biblical sense. That is because most local churches have entirely abrogated their responsibilities in the one key function of the local church, its overriding purpose of teaching, learning and living the Word of God.

If a church is not really what I would call a "church" in the Bible's estimation of such things, that it is all the same whether or not they have a polity which reflects biblical standards. And on the other hand, if a church really is a church, that is, really does have a single man who has established his authority by accurate teaching of the Word of God and its truths, then by definition the essential governance will be good, at least for the most part. For it is impossible for a man in such a position not to deviate in his teaching if he begins to deviate in his behavior (and vice versa). So from the point of view of the individual Christian, both the behavior of the lead teacher and his teaching are of one piece. It is really difficult to make any such assessment in most churches since there really is no substantive teaching going on in the first place which one may then compare to the behavior and administrative policies of such a pastor/teacher/elder, since most churches are in fact run by deacons calling themselves pastors who are not in any way either gifted or prepared or inclined to teach what is in the Word of God. Finally, since all Christians are empowered to "vote with their feet", the technical issue brought up is also, in my opinion, a moot one - or should be. Were I a lay person in a congregation where there was a change from a Bible teaching pastor-teacher to a non Bible teaching but rather sermonizing administrator, I would most definitely withdraw myself from that group. For on the one hand it is impossible for a Christian to keep growing spiritually without orthodox, substantive Bible teaching of some sort, and on the other continued association with a group which has rebelled against that essential biblical principle is fraught with all manner of spiritual dangers. Bad associates corrupt good morals, after all, and in the case where the moral deficiency is subtle rather than obvious, the dangers are actually more rather than less extreme.

Love,
Madeline

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Yes, the pastor can suggest, but the local church is still the only authority.

But that said, take a good long look at Acts 6:1-6. You will find that the apostles did not select these men, the local church did.

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:3 (KJV)

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Acts 6:5 (KJV)

They chose, that is the local church chose, we would do good to use this as our example, and let the local church have the authority it was given. It does not even appear that the apostles suggested anyone. Its clear that they knew the local church should make such decisions.

Sunday school teachers, its great to have volunteers, but even so, the church has to approve of them. And the church needs to make wise decisions.

I know of one church who had a young unwed mother with child, she volunteered to teach the young girls, her Sunday school class produce 5 unwed mothers.
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Sunday school teachers, its great to have volunteers, but even so, the church has to approve of them. And the church needs to make wise decisions.


The church cannot know these people like the pastor does, the pastor knows best if someone would make a good teacher.
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Your wrong, most churches around here, the pastors has not been around near as long as the church members who have known these people all their lives.

And let me tell you, many people do not present their true self to the preacher.

But, besides that, I gave the verses, they are in the Bible for a reason.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Tim 3:16-17 (KJV)

Its very clear, the apostles let the church member chose the officers of the church, we would do good to follow their example.

1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
Acts 6:1-6 (KJV)

What is wrong with the Bible way, God's way? Why ignore it?

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It's no wonder that to the world most baptist churches look just like any other social gathering they see. You have people following an earthly leadership. What kind of amazing affect would it have if the world saw a called out people following an invisible leadership, not seen with the physical eyes yet in perfect unity? They would certainly be curious and want to know this Jesus. What if they saw the greatest amongst us not in a place of lordship, but in a place of servanthood to those who are lesser in abilities? It sure would make them say, "We have never seen it as such." It may actually make them wonder just what's going on and maybe do some searching to find out.

Mark 10:42-44
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

That word "minister" means a servant or waiter. It comes from a word which means "to run on errands".


Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

The shepherds have to give account for how they watched their sheep.

Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

These verses very clearly state there are those who rule in the church, and the others are to submit unto their authority.


In Hebrews we see a people who were returning back to judiasm and we see how harsh Paul had to deal with them for such. He did his best to place a fear in them that would turn them to the right direction. And in a situation like they were in, those things were necessary as they did not fully consider the end result of the direction they were heading. However, when they got to a place of spiritual maturity to see that Christ is better than those shadows of the new(assuming they changed their resolve), then fear was no longer necessary or useful for them.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Also, it is worth noting that the third person plural is what is used when referring to the party in leadership. Not third person singular. It is not in direct reference to their pastor but in reference to those immature brothers and sisters submitting to those who had been in the faith some time("who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow,"), and had some spirituality about them. However, the end result is that they follow Christ and his direction:

Hebrews 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Hebrews 13:20-21
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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In Hebrews we see a people who were returning back to judiasm and we see how harsh Paul had to deal with them for such. He did his best to place a fear in them that would turn them to the right direction. And in a situation like they were in' date=' those things were necessary as they did not fully consider the end result of the direction they were heading. However, when they got to a place of spiritual maturity to see that Christ is better than those shadows of the new(assuming they changed their resolve), then fear was no longer necessary or useful for them.[/quote']

I might be missing your point. Are you stating that the NT book of Hebrews is somehow less inspired than the rest of the NT, or less applicable than the other NT epistles? Hebrews is just as much inspired, just as much profitable for doctrine, etc. There is much in there that is directly applicable to us today.

My Bible teaches me that my pastor is the leader of my church, and I am to submit to his leadership in my life. You can explain away those verses all you want. Rule means rule - and I gave the specific definitions of the words in a prior post. My pastor is God's man to lead, guide, direct, and shepherd His church that he is to oversee.
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I might be missing your point. Are you stating that the NT book of Hebrews is somehow less inspired than the rest of the NT, or less applicable than the other NT epistles? Hebrews is just as much inspired, just as much profitable for doctrine, etc. There is much in there that is directly applicable to us today.

My Bible teaches me that my pastor is the leader of my church, and I am to submit to his leadership in my life. You can explain away those verses all you want. Rule means rule - and I gave the specific definitions of the words in a prior post. My pastor is God's man to lead, guide, direct, and shepherd His church that he is to oversee.


No where did I discredit Hebrews. I simply was making some very key points about it that people ignor while holding to their doctrine of the Nicolaitans. You say a pastor is in authority but we say Christ is. Jesus clearly says that a pastor is NOT:

Mark 10:42-45
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So, Jerry, how is it among you? Because, "so shall it not be among you". Take this one up with Jesus. The scriptures do not contradict themselves. I would say that a pastor does lead, but it is by example. Not with a rod. And those in rule that it speaks of, I believe, are the same being spoken of in 1 Timothy 5. Hence the plurality in both passages, yet the singular in Christ's statement in Mark 10.
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The scriptures do not contradict themselves. I would say that a pastor does lead' date=' but it is by example.[/quote']

No, but you yourself are running to Matthew to contradict Hebrews!!

Instead of arguing with the Word of God and with the wording of the Word of God (such as the term "rule"), why not accept what God says and teach what it means? No one here is teaching that a pastor has the right to lord over others' faith - however, the Bible DOES use the term "rule", and you are calling God's Word into question when you won't accept what He says.
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This might answer some questions and does provide more Scripture for consideration on this issue. This is taken from the Way of Life Encyclopedia:

The Responsibility of Churches Toward Pastors

(1) Respect and love them (1Th 5:12-13). (2) Obey their teaching (Eph 4:11-12). (3) Follow their examples (Heb 13:7; 1Pe 5:1-3). (4) Submit to their oversight (Heb 13:17). While it is crucial that the church members submit to the God-given authority of the pastor, we must also emphasize that the pastor's authority comes only from the Bible. If a church leader tries to give instruction contrary to the Word of God, he must not be obeyed. If he tries to correct someone, but has no biblical basis for his judgment, his warnings have no true weight before God. Christian leaders are to lead and correct according to the Bible, not according to their own fallible thinking. Each Christian has the responsibility to "prove all things" and to "search the Scriptures daily whether those things are so" (Ac 17:10-11; 1Th 5:21), and not to blindly to follow a man. (5) Pray for them (Heb 13:18-19; Eph 6:18-19; Col 4:2-3; 2Th 3:1-2). (6) Provide for their physical needs (1Ti 5:17-18). "A church that is penurious with a pastor violates the Scripture. Rarely does such a church manifest spiritual power or progress. The principles revealed in 2Co 9:6-10 are worthy of consideration" (Paul Jackson, The Doctrine and Administration of the Church).

The Pastor's Authority

SOME GENERAL LESSONS: Following are some Bible truths about pastoral authority: (1) There are certain men in churches called rulers and overseers (Ac 20:28; 1Th 5:12; Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:1; Tit 1:7). Every Christian does not have the same authority in the church; pastors are to lead the churches, not vice versa. (2) Church leaders are called by three different terms, but the terms refer to the same office; thus, the hierarchical form of church government which places bishops over elders is not biblical. (3) Each church is to have its own leaders and government (Tit 1:5; Ac 14:23). Since this is clearly the N.T. pattern, any outside form of control over the churches is unbiblical and dangerous. (4) Every pastor is to be God-called, ordained, and qualified (Ac 14:23; 1Ti 3:1-16; Tit 1:1-16). N.T. churches are not to be led by unordained men or by men who cannot do the whole work of a pastor. Every pastor is to be both a teacher and a ruler (Ac 20:28; 1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:9-11; 1Pe 5:1-2). (5) Deacons are never referred to in the capacity of ruling or overseeing churches. The deacon is a servant, not a ruler. Church rule by a deacon board is unscriptural and has caused great harm in many assemblies.

THE EXTENT OF THE PASTOR'S AUTHORITY. If responsibility implies a corresponding authority, which it does, we can get a clear idea of the areas and extent of a pastor's authority by considering his God-given responsibilities in the church. There are three major areas of pastoral responsibility, with corresponding authority: (1) A pastor has the responsibility and authority to teach and shepherd the church (Ac 20:28; Eph 4:11-12; 1Th 5:12; 1Pe 5:1-4). Pastors, therefore, have the authority to oversee all aspects of such ministry. They must have the final decision concerning what is taught and by whom, and must judge all things that are taught to make certain it is correct (1Co 14:29). In 1998, I was invited to preach in all of the services one Sunday in a church in Missouri. As the day progressed, I noticed that only the pastor and his family seemed happy about my preaching. The rest of the congregation seemed to be disgruntled about something. After the evening service, the men asked the pastor to join them for a meeting in a separate room in the church, and they informed him that they did not like my preaching and they did not believe he had the authority to invite special speakers without their permission. Not long after that, the pastor was dismissed. This is a prime example of rebellion against pastoral authority. It is not the congregation or the deacons who are responsible before God to oversee the teaching; that is the pastor's responsibility, and it is therefore his prerogative to make the decisions in this regard. If the teaching or preaching is heretical, that is a different matter, of course. In such a case, the congregation should not follow the pastor's lead. (2) A pastor has the responsibility and authority to protect the church from false teaching (Ac 20:28-31; 1Co 14:29; 1Ti 4:1-6; Tit 1:9-13). Pastors have the God-given responsibility and authority to determine what is taught and by whom, as well as to forbid the Christians from getting involved with false things, such as Bible studies conducted by the wrong kind of teachers, meetings in which unbiblical doctrines or practices are promoted, etc. This includes oversight of the music ministry of the church, because music is a form of teaching (Eph 5:19). (3) A pastor has the responsibility and authority to oversee the entire work of the church (Ac 20:28; 1Th 5:12; 1Pe 5:1-2). The pastor's position of overseeing the church is similar to that of a supervisor or manager. He is not to do all of the work of the ministry-every Christian must be busy in the work of Christ-but the pastor is to supervise all of the work. There is widespread rebellion against and resistance to pastoral authority today. Such is the product of the fallen human nature. The "old man" hates authority; he will not have anyone rule over him. But pastoral authority is God-given, and the one who resists a God-called pastor in his work of leading the church according to the Word of God will answer to Jesus Christ for his stubbornness. Hear the Bible: "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that much give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you" (Heb 13:17).

SPIRITUAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE PASTOR'S AUTHORITY. The authority exercised by a pastor, missionary, or other church leader is to be distinctly different from that exercised by leaders in the secular world. (1) It is a ministering authority- the authority of a shepherd (Ac 20:28; 2Co 13:10; 1Pe 5:2). The authority of a pastor is for the purpose of building up and protecting God's people and work. (2) It is a submissive, humble authority- the authority of a steward (1Co 3:9; 4:1; 12:7; Tit 1:7; 1Pe 4:10; 5:3-5). The pastor is to rule under the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ, not by his own mind or will. The church is God's property; the people are God's people; the work is God's work. The pastor is merely a steward or caretaker. Contrast this with the ministry of proud, willful Diotrephes (3Jo 1:14). (3) It is a loving authority- the authority of a father (1Th 2:7-11). The pastor is to have a godly, loving, tender, sacrificial consideration for the welfare of the people. His rule is not to be overbearing and self-serving.

LIMITATIONS TO THE PASTOR'S AUTHORITY. A pastor only has such authority as delegated to him by God. Christians are never told to submit blindly to a church leader, but to submit to truly God-called men who are leading according to the Word of God. As the Apostle Paul said, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (1Co 11:1). Paul could demand that others follow him because he was following Christ and was faithfully preaching the message given to him by Christ. Apart from that, even Paul had no authority. He warned the churches of Galatia that if he were to preach any other gospel, they were to reject him (Ga 1:8). Christians should reject the ministry of any man who does not possess the following qualities: (1) A pastor's authority is based on the message he preaches. Heb 13:7 instructs Christians to submit to those who have spoken the Word of God. A preacher's authority is in God's Word, not in his own words and desires. If a pastor or teacher strays from the Bible, his listeners should not follow him; he has strayed from his authority (Ac 17:10-11; 1Th 5:21). (2) A pastor's authority is based on his call from God (Ac 20:28). The elders of the church at Ephesus were appointed by the Holy Spirit. This is a foundational basis for spiritual authority. Christians are only to submit to men who give plain evidence that they are called of God. (3) A pastor's authority is based on the life he lives. Heb 13:7 says, "Obey them that have the rule over you ... remembering the end of their conversation." This speaks of their manner of life. If a man is a hypocrite, if he does not practice in his daily life the right kind of Christian living, he has no authority to lead others. (4) A pastor's authority is based on the work he does. 1Th. 5:12-13 refers to those who are over us in the Lord and requires that we "esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake..." A man's spiritual ministry must be according to the Word of God, or he ceases to have authority over others.

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I must say I have been enjoying this topic very much. It is something we as baptist need to get figured out where we should stand. I posted earlier, so you know basically where I stand. I liked Bro. Clouds article all but about that the church has no say in who fills the pulpit. Yes the pastor is to guide, but if those in the pews do not feel they get any feeding from a certain preacher who is the pastors buddy, they should not hear him year in year out. It can happen. I very much enjoyed the article on the Baptist Pillar web site.

I have been to several churches as a member in my life (as a preachers son, Dad would stand and the church would not follow), and have observed many others. I have heard members say to my family "you are just the pastor" and "Pastors come and go, but Bro. Vern will always be with us." I have also seen church leaders promoting false doctrines that if you approached them about would simply tell you to go talk to their pastor. They put him so high that they knew whatever he said was the truth, no questions asked. They could not prove anything about it because all they had was a head knowledge. Now which one is in the right, Church rule as in the first example, or pastor rule as in the second example. The answer is niether. We find in Mark 7, Jesus talking about the washing of hands. He tells the pharissees they have put the traditions of men above God's Law. If we follow the way of some that if pastor says it we must do it, we are putting his traditions as equal to God's law. The pastor is not put to rule over his churches members lives, but over their spiritual lives. Meaning if they are going against the Bible he has authority to stand for the Bible. At the same time though, the pastor does not work for the church. He works for God. The church has no authority over him, unless he steps over away from the will of God. It all takes a balance. Whenever we start looking for ways of building self up, we tear self down. I have seen preachers and laymen bothe do this to themselves. But when we build each other up, we all end up on a pedistal, able to work for God.

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