Anglo-Israelism

[flaja]

This morning I left another board after finding a thread regarding replacement theology, that I had been participating in, closed.

I brought up the issue of Anglo-Israelism and was treated as if I were a fool or an ignorant moron. I had just managed to maneuver several other posters to the point where they had to acknowledge that while every Jew is an Israelite, not every Israelite is not a Jew when the moderator declared that the thread was exhausted and closed it. Since I have arthritis in my arms and shoulders, I cannot afford any wasted typing, and rather than risk having any more threads closed on me, I left.

I am not inclined to accept that Great Britain and the U.S.A. represent any part of Israel (at least not without further research), and I absolutely reject the racism that comes with Herbert Armstrong?s version of Anglo-Israelism (and I also reject the heresy of the Worldwide Church of God). However, I don?t see where the Bible can support any other conclusion except that the Jews are only a subset of the Israelites and that prophecies about Israel may not pertain just to the Jews.

Any thoughts?

[zealyouthguy]

My first thought is that you better give us biblical background for your theory of "replacement theology" before anyone here will debate the issue.

[LindaR]

I am a born again Jewish believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. I am Jewish by birth and don't consider my brethren after the flesh to be a subset of the Israelites. You need to study the OT prophecies concerning the nation of Israel before you come to that conclusion.

[Jerry]

In McGee's Through The Bible Commentary on Ezra, he points out that Ezra indicates Jews from all the 12 tribes went back to Israel after their deportation to Babylon. No, they did not all go back - but they were not lost. Even James indicates that the early Jewish church was made up of Jews from all 12 tribes:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

[flaja]

I approach this issue from a history/prophetic standpoint. As far as I know the chief proponent of Anglo-Israelism is the Worldwide Church of God and its founder Herbert Armstrong. But Armstrong?s view has a strong racist component that I utterly reject. However, I do believe that identifying the nationalities that the Israelites from the northern Kingdom assimilated into is vital for understanding prophecy. You cannot understand end-times prophecies without knowing whom the prophecies are about. If the Bible says something will happen to Israel meaning the Jews and some other modern nationalities as well, we need to know what these other nationalities are.

Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

In this verse Israel is blessing his grandsons and transferring his name, Israel, onto them saying that their descendants would become a multitude on the earth. All of the Jews put together wouldn?t constitute a multitude of people, but Anglo-Americans would. English is the 1st or 2nd language of about a billion people, roughly 1/6 of the world?s present population.

After King Solomon died his kingdom split apart. The people of the tribe of Judah and Benjamin along with a portion of the Levites formed the Kingdom of Judah. The remaining Levites, along with the remaining Israelite tribes, that had originated with Jacob, formed the Kingdom of Israel.

The first time that the term Jews is used in the Bible is II Kings 16:5-6 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

So the first time anyone in the Bible is identified as Jewish it is to describe a war between the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. The people of the Kingdom of Israel (post Solomon) are not Jews.

When the Assyrians captured the Kingdom of Israel the Assyrians removed the Israelis from the territory of their Kingdom and re-settled them in other parts of the Assyrian Empire. In their place the Assyrians settled a collection of people that became the Samaritans by the 1st century AD.

When the Assyrian Empire was captured by the Babylonians, the Israelis did not return to their original homeland. As near as any historian can tell they simply assimilated into other countries.

[Jerry]

Not all of the Northern nor all of the Southern Kingdoms returned to Israel after the Babylonian captivity, but it is apparent from Ezra that some from each did. He refers to how offerings were made for all 12 tribes when they returned. I have to head out the door for work, but I can find the exact passage later.

[zealyouthguy]

I approach this issue from a history/prophetic standpoint. As far as I know the chief proponent of Anglo-Israelism is the Worldwide Church of God and its founder Herbert Armstrong. But Armstrong?s view has a strong racist component that I utterly reject. However, I do believe that identifying the nationalities that the Israelites from the northern Kingdom assimilated into is vital for understanding prophecy. You cannot understand end-times prophecies without knowing whom the prophecies are about. If the Bible says something will happen to Israel meaning the Jews and some other modern nationalities as well, we need to know what these other nationalities are.

Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

In this verse Israel is blessing his grandsons and transferring his name, Israel, onto them saying that their descendants would become a multitude on the earth. All of the Jews put together wouldn?t constitute a multitude of people, but Anglo-Americans would. English is the 1st or 2nd language of about a billion people, roughly 1/6 of the world?s present population.

After King Solomon died his kingdom split apart. The people of the tribe of Judah and Benjamin along with a portion of the Levites formed the Kingdom of Judah. The remaining Levites, along with the remaining Israelite tribes, that had originated with Jacob, formed the Kingdom of Israel.

The first time that the term Jews is used in the Bible is II Kings 16:5-6 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

So the first time anyone in the Bible is identified as Jewish it is to describe a war between the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. The people of the Kingdom of Israel (post Solomon) are not Jews.

When the Assyrians captured the Kingdom of Israel the Assyrians removed the Israelis from the territory of their Kingdom and re-settled them in other parts of the Assyrian Empire. In their place the Assyrians settled a collection of people that became the Samaritans by the 1st century AD.

When the Assyrian Empire was captured by the Babylonians, the Israelis did not return to their original homeland. As near as any historian can tell they simply assimilated into other countries.

Well, that's just plain erroneous... the bible illustrates several waves of remnant Jews that returned to Israel, it also relates where those who intermarried had to give up their wives, furthermore, the temple was rebuild by Jews, purified and sacrifices started again, when Jesus came he said he came to the jews, which just so happen to live in Israel... Paul who knew his own lineage, and was a jew of jews, speaks of the jews all over Israel, and then speaks of the jews that are scattered abroad... all of them legitimate Jews, unless God in his wisdom all of of a sudden couldn't determine who was really a jew or not.

The fact was that Jesus and the jews of his day (and even the samaritans themselves) didn't recognize the samaritans as Jews. But this strengthens rather weakens the biblical position of the modern day Jew being the actual Jew. If you are simply saying... everyone who lives in Israel isn't a jew. I think most people would agree with you.

If (as typically seen) you are suggesting that White men in England and then thusly transferred to the US are the REAL jews and then start crying about "Zionist", then indeed I do feel that the issue is racism.

I've posted it before, but am not going to do the footwork (keyboard work?) again. Genetically the Jews today are the same genetically as they are in the past millenia... you can look up Jewish Genetics if you are truly interested.

DNA has been a wonderful tool the Lord has given us to help silence doubters and those who would make bogus claims...

The Mormons claim legitimacy based on false claims of the lost Jewish tribe here in the U.S., but that's been genetically disproven also.

[flaja]

Not all of the Northern nor all of the Southern Kingdoms returned to Israel after the Babylonian captivity' date=' but it is apparent from Ezra that some from each did. He refers to how offerings were made for all 12 tribes when they returned. I have to head out the door for work, but I can find the exact passage later.[/quote']

Not all of the Israelites were reunited in what became Judea since Jesus sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel: Matthew 10:6.

[zealyouthguy]

Matthew 10:5-6 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The context is that the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" are simply lost jews... as opposed to the lost Gentiles that they were not to go to.

[flaja]

Only if you define gentile in a certain way. Typically gentile means s non-Jew. But, Moslems define gentile as anyone who is not Moslem regardless of their nationality or ethnicity. I would be inclined to define a gentile as someone who is not an Israelite.

When Jesus sent out His disciples, practically all Jews were "lost" because the Gospel had not yet been taken to everyone in Judea, let alone all of the Jews living in the Roman Empire. If Jesus had meant to evangelize the Jews, why didn't He simply say Jews? Surely Jesus was familiar with history and thus knew about the dual kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

[zealyouthguy]

Jesus is God, he is the one who allowed the split of the Kingdoms... thus, when he came to reach the Jews (like he said he did and like Paul said he did, and like God promised in the old testament to Abraham (let me guess you don't believe Abraham was a jew either right?), and that is PRECISELY why he came to be born in Bethlehem of a virgin and to be raised in Judea and to preach to the jews his coming and his salvation. It is, incidentally, also why John the Baptist was placed in (where was he placed???) Oh, yeah, Judea. The funny thing is the word JUDEA means the place of the Jews.

Really the ONLY people who ever posit this are looking for ways to discredit the Jews and the nation of Israel and looking to be called God's chosen people.

Jesus DID simply say he came to the Jews first, Jesus DID simply come to the heart of the promised land to reach them.

I recommend you bone up a little on how many times Jesus did speak about the Jews, including phrases such as:

Matthew 8:10-12 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 15:22-27 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Matthew 21:38-45 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

And I could literally go on and on... but this hobby horse has already been ridden by others in the past.

[Jerry]

Not all of the Israelites were reunited in what became Judea since Jesus sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel: Matthew 10:6.

You know, that means that those sheep from Israel were actually in the cities of Israel.

[flaja]

Jesus is God' date=' he is the one who allowed the split of the Kingdoms... thus, when he came to reach the Jews (like he said he did and like Paul said he did, and like God promised in the old testament to Abraham (let me guess you don't believe Abraham was a jew either right?), and that is PRECISELY why he came to be born in Bethlehem of a virgin and to be raised in Judea and to preach to the jews his coming and his salvation.[/quote']

But what has God done about the other Israelites since they were captured by the Assyrians? Did God forget about them? Has 5/6 of God?s chosen people gone extinct? Does God not know who these people are anymore?



How so? You are essentially calling me an anti-Semite when you know nothing of me other that what I have posted here so I will thank you to not postulate on the basis of ignorance.

I am not trying to discredit the Jews; I am trying to figure out what has happened to non-Jewish Israelites since they were lost to history after the Assyrian conquest as well as how these non-Jewish Israelites will affect prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled.



Jesus wasn?t Jesus when the Jews and the Israeilis were at war with each other, or when the Assyrians conquered the northern Kingdom of Israel?

His memory certainly goes back farther than the manger in Bethlehem.

BTW: God has often made a distinction between the Jews and the other Israelites as distinct people:

Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling
and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 3:6-8 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king,
Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Ezekiel 16:45-47 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and
her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite. And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters. Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.


Also consider Isaiah 27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

This doesn?t really sound like it could pertain to geographic Israel, i.e., the Jewish homeland, now does it? The Jews have never been numerous enough to fill the world with anything.

[flaja]

[quote="Jerry"][quote="flaja"]Not all of the Israelites were reunited in what became Judea since Jesus sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel: Matthew 10:6.[/quote]

You know, that means that those sheep from Israel were actually in the cities of Israel.[/quote]

Huh?

[Jerry]

What kind of animal is a non-Jewish Israelite? Biblically-speaking, all Israelis (ie. those who descended from Israel - and not referring to simply Palestinians, ie. Gentiles occupying the land) are Jewish.