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Was the King James Bible itself inspired?


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I believe that KJV is the best translation for the English speaking people, but I absolutely DO NOT believe it was inspired. The only things that were inspired were the original autographs. Through the years there may have been mistakes in copying, but not to a degree that it would affect the meaning of the text. I, unlike Ruckman and others of his sort, do not believe in "double-inspiration." And I also very much disagree with people who use the "purified seven times" verses to try and make their point. Their exegesis of this portion of Scripture has been skewed to fit their ideology. Honest exegesis will show that the comparison says, Ps 12:6  "as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." 

Nowhere does it say that the KJV has been purified seven times.

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

The Bible says God's Word IS inspired, is given by inspiration. No, God did not reinspire the KJV - BUT where does the Bible teach that it loses it's inspiration when someone copies or translates it?

If you look within the Bible itself, there are parts that were copied (such as Jeremiah recopying and rewriting the same scroll after it was originally destroyed, Ezekiel copying it out again after eating the original scroll, Hezekiah copying out the Proverbs of Solomon) and parts that were quoted by other writers (including NT writers speaking Greek but quoting the Hebrew OT, Luke writing Paul's conversion account and his Hebrew messages in the book of Acts - yet he wrote the book of Acts in Greek). Yet we find Paul, Jesus, Peter and other Bible writers declaring all these books and passages the inspired Word of God. Yes, I can give many specific verses where this is done in the Bible (ie. the copying/rewriting of Biblical texts, translating of other passages within the Bible itself) - and it is still the inspired Word of God. Not reinspired - but it never lost it's original inspiration!

And lastly, God never said His Word WAS inspired - but IS inspired! I have a faithful, accurate translation of His Word in English in my King James Bible.

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On 9/22/2021 at 5:42 AM, Jerry said:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

The Bible says God's Word IS inspired, is given by inspiration. No, God did not reinspire the KJV - BUT where does the Bible teach that it loses it's inspiration when someone copies or translates it?

If you look within the Bible itself, there are parts that were copied (such as Jeremiah recopying and rewriting the same scroll after it was originally destroyed, Ezekiel copying it out again after eating the original scroll, Hezekiah copying out the Proverbs of Solomon) and parts that were quoted by other writers (including NT writers speaking Greek but quoting the Hebrew OT, Luke writing Paul's conversion account and his Hebrew messages in the book of Acts - yet he wrote the book of Acts in Greek). Yet we find Paul, Jesus, Peter and other Bible writers declaring all these books and passages the inspired Word of God. Yes, I can give many specific verses where this is done in the Bible (ie. the copying/rewriting of Biblical texts, translating of other passages within the Bible itself) - and it is still the inspired Word of God. Not reinspired - but it never lost it's original inspiration!

And lastly, God never said His Word WAS inspired - but IS inspired! I have a faithful, accurate translation of His Word in English in my King James Bible.

That is excellent, Jerry.  I absolutely agree.  I can hold a KJV Bible in my hand and confidently say, "This is the word of God".  Years ago, I studied the Bible translation issue, fasted and prayed about it, and asked God to show me the truth.  The attached file is the story of how God led me through this amazing "journey" to a settled conclusion.  If you or anyone else wishes to read it, I hope that it is a blessing.  Your post is a blessing to me.

Take care my friend,

Brother Bruce

The Trial of God's Word.pdf

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Nothing but semantics. Inspired or preserved? At the end of the argument you believe the same thing. The KJV is the perfect word of God 

The translators who would have PRESERVED God's words would needed inspiration from God to carry it out. If not you would end up with just another "reliable translation".

"But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." - Job 32:8

Inspiration does not necessarily mean revelation though many always read it as such. They are two different doctrines. 

The men who built the Tabernacle in the wilderness received inspiration from God to do it but Moses received the revelation in how it was to be built. And remember, the Tabernacle had to be built perfectly as God instructed Moses.- Exodus 35:31. 

As far as I'm concerned this is more gnat straining over semantics to divide the brethren.

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Thanks Bruce. I just saved and emailed it to myself so I could read it in ibooks. Hey, do you know if you can just copy/paste a file into itunes to add it to ibooks? You can do that with music and videos.

Now, stepping away from the computer to read it on the couch.

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1 hour ago, SureWord said:

Nothing but semantics. Inspired or preserved? At the end of the argument you believe the same thing. The KJV is the perfect word of God 

The translators who would have PRESERVED God's words would needed inspiration from God to carry it out. If not you would end up with just another "reliable translation".

Absolutely disagree.

Inspiration means "God Breathed". God did not breathe out the KJV. He inspired the original penmen and He the preserved His Word for us from Generation to generation. Currently, the KJV is our preserved Word of God 

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4 hours ago, Pastorj said:

Absolutely disagree.

Inspiration means "God Breathed". God did not breathe out the KJV. He inspired the original penmen and He the preserved His Word for us from Generation to generation. Currently, the KJV is our preserved Word of God 

I think you are disagreeing with him on semantics.

How is the word preserved? How would the translators know what Greek and Hebrew texts to use? Is it the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit not God breathed?

In ancient Hebrew times, and a text of Moses was lost, and a new one was copied, was that text inspired or just “persevered”.

If the Greek texts of the New Testament books where the only ones inspired, and the KJV is only a preservation, Why would God say the Greek is his inspired word and not the English? If he is saying that, are we not fools for using the KJV?

My point is this. If the Holy Spirit ordained the usage of the KJV book, who are we to say what is inspired vs preserved? Is God’s will not the same upon both? Why are we using the means of Man to say what is what in the realm of Gods wisdom. And why are we separating the two? In my view, and I am assuming Surewords, this separation of Preserved vs Inspired is vain, and spits on what God has given us. 

 

Edited by Hugh_Flower
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6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

I think you are disagreeing with him on semantics.

How is the word preserved? How would the translators know what Greek and Hebrew texts to use? Is it the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit not God breathed?

In ancient Hebrew times, and a text of Moses was lost, and a new one was copied, was that text inspired or just “persevered”.

If the Greek texts of the New Testament books where the only ones inspired, and the KJV is only a preservation, Why would God say the Greek is his inspired word and not the English? If he is saying that, are we not fools for using the KJV?

My point is this. If the Holy Spirit ordained the usage of the KJV book, who are we to say what is inspired vs preserved? Is God’s will not the same upon both? Why are we using the means of Man to say what is what in the realm of Gods wisdom. And why are we separating the two? In my view, and I am assuming Surewords, this separation of Preserved vs Inspired is vain, and spits on what God has given us. 

 

 

I'd like to suggest to you Dr. David Sorenson's book "Touch Not the Unclean Thing," on the inspiration and preservation of the texts. It's pretty straightforward, and I usually recommend it to people who are confusing inspiration and preservation and asking the questions you just asked. There are several other books available as well on the subject. I believe one is by David White....I don't often recommend anything written by Dr. David Cloud, but he also has some good information on the preservation of the Bible.

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5 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

 

I'd like to suggest to you Dr. David Sorenson's book "Touch Not the Unclean Thing," on the inspiration and preservation of the texts. It's pretty straightforward, and I usually recommend it to people who are confusing inspiration and preservation and asking the questions you just asked. There are several other books available as well on the subject. I believe one is by David White....I don't often recommend anything written by Dr. David Cloud, but he also has some good information on the preservation of the Bible.

My issue is not a problem of being confused on the differences between Preservation and Inspiration… I am saying the problem lies in how other people are saying inspiration and preservation are not equally directed by God. God gave me  ( God breathed ) the Holy Spirit, and I was born again, yet I sin. However God keeps me preserved with the Holy Spirit so I do not lose my salvation.  Now the gift of being given the Holy Spirit and being preserved with the Holy Spirit is one and the same. So it is with how God keeps his word.

We as Bible believing Christians have a view of dispensationalism, I would argue here maybe that actually the Bible is ministered in this way, in a form of dispensation given by the Holy Ghost. Which is no less a grace and miracle than the original “”””inspiration””””

Edited by Hugh_Flower
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19 hours ago, Jerry said:

Thanks Bruce. I just saved and emailed it to myself so I could read it in ibooks. Hey, do you know if you can just copy/paste a file into itunes to add it to ibooks? You can do that with music and videos.

Now, stepping away from the computer to read it on the couch.

Hi Jerry,

I'm sorry but I've never used ibooks so I don't have the answer to your question.  Perhaps someone else on this post can help.

Take care,

Bruce

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Two significant New Testament passages concerning inspiration are the following:

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."

2 Peter 1:21 - "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Concerning the application of these passages in relation to the King James translation, we might consider whether the following is Biblically legitimate to claim:

1.  All the King James translation is translated (given) by inspiration of God.

2.  The King James translation came not in 1611 by the will of man, but holy men of God translated as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Concerning other English translations, we might consider whether the following is Biblically legitimate to claim:

1.  All the Geneva translation is translated (given) by inspiration of God.

2.  The Geneva translation came not in past time by the will of man, but holy men of God translated as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Or,

1.  All the New International translation is translated (given) by inspiration of God.

2.  The New International translation came not in past time by the will of man, but holy men of God translated as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(Note: In this posting I am NOT revealing my own position concerning these considerations; rather, I am presenting these considerations in order to challenge precise understanding within doctrinal positioning.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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When Hezekiah quoted Solomon's writings and put together part of the book of Proverbs - it was still inspired Scripture - it didn't suddenly lose it's inspiration because it was copied out into it's final form.

When any of the Greek-speaking New Testament writers quoted the Hebrew Old Testament - it was still the Word of God - it wasn't suddenly less inspired or uninspired.

When Luke quoted Paul's Hebrew speeches and testimony in the book of Acts - originally spoken in Hebrew, but quoted in Greek - it didn't suddenly turn out to be something other than the Word of God, didn't suddenly lose it's inspiration.

Why should any Bible believing Christian believe or accept the viewpoint that just because the completed Bible is copied or translated that it suddenly becomes uninspired. Sorry, my God is bigger than that - and He promised to preserve His inspired Word forever, every jot and every tittle - that is every word and every punctuation mark in the original (and He didn't say it was only preserved or inspired until copied or translated).

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18 hours ago, Jerry said:

When Hezekiah quoted Solomon's writings and put together part of the book of Proverbs - it was still inspired Scripture - it didn't suddenly lose it's inspiration because it was copied out into it's final form.

When Hezekiah quoted Solomon's writings and put together part of the book of Proverbs - Hezekiah was a holy man of God who was being moved by the Holy Spirit of God in precisely the manner that 2 Peter 1:21 presents.  Thus Hezekiah was not simply copying Scripture; rather, he himself was being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to arrange Scripture.

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

When any of the Greek-speaking New Testament writers quoted the Hebrew Old Testament - it was still the Word of God - it wasn't suddenly less inspired or uninspired.

When any of the Greek-speaking and Greek-writing New Testament writers quoted the Hebrew of the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures - they were holy men of God who were being moved by the Holy Spirit of God in precisely the manner that 2 Peter 1:21 presents.  Thus they were not simply copying and translating Old Testament Scripture into Greek; rather, they themselves were being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to formulate the New Testament Scriptures.

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

When Luke quoted Paul's Hebrew speeches and testimony in the book of Acts - originally spoken in Hebrew, but quoted in Greek - it didn't suddenly turn out to be something other than the Word of God, didn't suddenly lose it's inspiration.

When Luke quoted Paul's Hebrew speeches and testimony in the book of Acts, originally spoken in Hebrew, but quoted in Greek - Luke was a holy man of God who was being moved by the Holy Spirit of God in precisely the manner that 2 Peter 1:21 presents.  Luke was not simply copying and translating speeches from Hebrew into Greek; rather, Luke himself was being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to formulate a portion of the New Testament Scriptures.

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

Why should any Bible believing Christian believe or accept the viewpoint that just because the completed Bible is copied or translated that it suddenly becomes uninspired. 

Actually, this begs the question (just as I have presented in my earlier posting) - Is it Biblically accurate to claim that the King James translators were moved by the Holy Spirit of God in precisely the manner that 2 Peter 1:21 presents?  Or to put it another way - Is it Biblically accurate to claim that the King James translators were moved by the Holy Spirit of God to translate the Holy Scriptures into English in precisely the same manner that the various Old Testament penmen and New Testament penmen were moved by the Holy Spirit of God to originally author and arrange the Holy Scriptures as per 2 Peter 1:21?  Furthermore, it may be asked - Is it Biblically accurate to claim that this same process of inspiration as per 2 Peter 1:21 has also occurred with other translations into English and/or that this same process of inspiration as per 2 Peter 1:21 has occurred with translations into other languages than English?  (Note: If you answer "yes" to these questions, then by definition you DO hold to a "re-inspirational" viewpoint of translation.)

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

Sorry, my God is bigger than that.

The question here is NOT about what the Lord our God, the Almighty God, is able to do; rather, the question is about what the Lord our God has revealed concerning what He HAS done in this matter.  If anyone claims a teaching that is not accurate to what God's Word itself reveals as truth, then that teaching is false, even if that teaching sounds really good.

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

Sorry, my God is bigger than that - and He promised to preserve His inspired Word forever, every jot and every tittle - that is every word and every punctuation mark in the original . . . 

Indeed, the Lord our God, the Almighty God, HAS presented such a promise in His Word.  For this reason I myself very firmly hold to the Biblical doctrines of both Biblical inspiration and Biblical preservation.  Yeah, I hold very firmly to the doctrine of "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation for EVERY generation of God's people on the earth.  However, as even you yourself have presented above, "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation means "every word and every punctuation mark IN THE ORIGINAL."  By definition, the very moment that an individual translates from the original language to ANY other language, the jots and tittles (the words, letters, and punctuation marks) CHANGE.  Thus by definition, NO translation actually fulfills the precise definition of "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation.  (Note: If an individual holds only to "CONCEPT" preservation, then that individual might have room to claim that a translation could fulfill the definition of such preservation.)

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

(and He didn't say it was only preserved or inspired until copied or translated).

Actually, by definition "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation is all about copying under the providential work of God to preserve every "jot and tittle" of His original Word from generation to generation unto the present and into the future.  Thus He most certainly did NOT say that His Word was only preserved until copied, since copying is built into the very definition of Biblical preservation.  Yet the Biblical doctrine of "jot and tittle" preservation does NOT indicate that ALL copying and copies would be providentially protected with "jot and tittle" accuracy.  This means that deceivers CAN create copies with alterations to teach falsehood, and that there CAN be an accumulation of both truly preserved and falsely altered copies over time in competition with one another (such as exists, I believe, in our present day).

On the other hand, as I have presented above, by definition "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation is a matter for the ORIGINAL words, letter, and punctuation.  By definition "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation CANNOT carry to a translation, since translation by definition requires changes in the "jots and tittles."  For example - (Note: I wanted to use actual Greek letters for this, but could not get them to paste over) "agape" (employing the actual Greek letters) and "love" do NOT have the same "jots and tittles."  Nor would this be the case if we employed the English word "charity" in place of the English word "love."  Greek letters are NOT the same as English letters.  The number of letters in a given Greek word are NOT necessarily the same as the number of letters in the English word to which the Greek word is translated, and the same would hold with Hebrew words.  Even so, when the Lord our God promised to preserve His Word with "JOT AND TITTLE" preservation, He by definition did NOT include the work of translation within the doctrine of "jot and tittle" preservation.

Now, does this mean that I do not view the King James translation has retaining any aspect of inspiration?  No.  Rather, I believe that the Biblical doctrine of inspiration is BOTH about "inspirational origin" (given by) and "inspirational authority" (of God).  I believe that ONLY the original writings can claim "inspirational origin," but that ANY copy that is providentially preserved  and protected ("jot and tittle" preserved) and ANY translation that is accurately translated from that which has been providentially preserved retains "inspirational authority" (is IN TRUTH the very Word OF GOD in whatever language).  However, I most certainly do NOT hold that 2 Peter 1:21 (which clearly speaks in the past tense) can be applied to the process of copying and translating, but ONLY can be applied to the original work of the Holy Spirit in the original formulation of the Holy Scriptures (both in its original writing and original arranging).

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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I am not in any way saying that Bible translators are moved by the Holy Spirit in their translations or that their became inspired or re-inspired. The Word of God never lost its inspiration - and for clarification, any faithful/accurate translation or copy is just as inspired as the originals (ie. not RE-inspired, but STILL inspired). And for the sake of this conversation: is the King James Bible an accurate, faithful word for word translation of the preserved original underlying manuscripts? If so, then in English we STILL have the inspired, preserved Word of God today - in my English King James Bible that I can hold in my hand, read, study, and meditate on - not just in the originals.

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2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now, does this mean that I do not view the King James translation has retaining any aspect of inspiration?  No.  Rather, I believe that the Biblical doctrine of inspiration is BOTH about "inspirational origin" (given by) and "inspirational authority" (of God).  I believe that ONLY the original writings can claim "inspirational origin," but that ANY copy that is providentially preserved  and protected ("jot and tittle" preserved) and ANY translation that is accurately translated from that which has been providentially preserved retains "inspirational authority" (is IN TRUTH the very Word OF GOD in whatever language).  However, I most certainly do NOT hold that 2 Peter 1:21 (which clearly speaks in the past tense) can be applied to the process of copying and translating, but ONLY can be applied to the original work of the Holy Spirit in the original formulation of the Holy Scriptures (both in its original writing and original arranging).

47 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I am not in any way saying that Bible translators are moved by the Holy Spirit in their translations or that their became inspired or re-inspired. The Word of God never lost its inspiration - and for clarification, any faithful/accurate translation or copy is just as inspired as the originals (ie. not RE-inspired, but STILL inspired). And for the sake of this conversation: is the King James Bible an accurate, faithful word for word translation of the preserved original underlying manuscripts? If so, then in English we STILL have the inspired, preserved Word of God today - in my English King James Bible that I can hold in my hand, read, study, and meditate on - not just in the originals. (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

I can agree with that portion of your post which I have emboldened, as long as we are talking about that which I have presented as "inspirational authority," not "inspirational origin."  Thus I can and DO indeed ascribe "inspirational authority" to the King James translation; and I do indeed hold it as the very Word of God in English for me to follow.

 

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If I understand what you said above - terms which I am not familiar with - then we agree. The Bible is - not was - inspired, The KJV in no way is the "origin" of the inspiration of God's Word, but has derived inspiration (I think that is how some other people online have put it).

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The translators of the KJV were not inspired.  God did not Breathe out the words of the KJV

God inspired the original penman and then preserved his Word.  This is critical to understand because the KJV is preserved and can be traced back from Generation to generation which is why I can hold up my KJV and call it inspired. It is also why I could embrace a modern translation if it followed the same process as the KJV.

It is also why I can hold up French, Spanish and other translations and call them inspired 

There are false teachers like Peter Ruckman who taught and pushed a double inspiration where God inspired the KJV.

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On 9/25/2021 at 2:56 PM, BibleBruce said:

That is excellent, Jerry.  I absolutely agree.  I can hold a KJV Bible in my hand and confidently say, "This is the word of God".  Years ago, I studied the Bible translation issue, fasted and prayed about it, and asked God to show me the truth.  The attached file is the story of how God led me through this amazing "journey" to a settled conclusion.  If you or anyone else wishes to read it, I hope that it is a blessing.  Your post is a blessing to me.

Take care my friend,

Brother Bruce

The Trial of God's Word.pdf 470.38 kB · 2 downloads

Thanks Bruce. Your article was well worth the read. Passed it on to a couple friends, one of which really appreciated it.

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