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Was the King James Bible itself inspired?


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Yeah, I'm a little hung up on the purified thing but I can see how that might be true. It seems to me that scripture is saying the Word is as pure as purified silver though. That's how I read it at least.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Yeah, I'm a little hung up on the purified thing but I can see how that might be true. It seems to me that scripture is saying the Word is as pure as purified silver though. That's how I read it at least.


I'm not an expert on this kinda stuff, I just know the KJB is perfect and it's God's word, and that I do not need an understanding of the original languages to know what God said (I did take 1 year of Greek, but I've since forgot it all). How the KJB got there, I'm not sure.

But here's an idea when it comes to being purified seven times:

1. Hebrew.
2. Aramaic.
3. Greek.
4. Old Syriac.
5. Latin.
6. German.
7. English.

Seven English Translations:

1. Wycliffe's
2. Tyndale's
3. Coverdale's
4. Great
5. Geneva
6. Bishops
7. KJV Edited by Rick Schworer
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Purified simply means free from error/impurity. I think the "seven times" equalling Bible versions is really pushing things. "Seven" is simply the number of perfection, so silver purified seven times would denote the most perfect and impurity-free silver possible, which is what God's Word is. No hidden meaning....pure means pure. It is not saying that the Word of God, at one time, was NOT pure. Its simply using a word picture to show how pure it is.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Purified simply means free from error/impurity. I think the "seven times" equalling Bible versions is really pushing things. "Seven" is simply the number of perfection, so silver purified seven times would denote the most perfect and impurity-free silver possible, which is what God's Word is. No hidden meaning....pure means pure. It is not saying that the Word of God, at one time, was NOT pure. Its simply using a word picture to show how pure it is.


:amen::thumb:
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Purified simply means free from error/impurity. I think the "seven times" equalling Bible versions is really pushing things. "Seven" is simply the number of perfection, so silver purified seven times would denote the most perfect and impurity-free silver possible, which is what God's Word is. No hidden meaning....pure means pure. It is not saying that the Word of God, at one time, was NOT pure. Its simply using a word picture to show how pure it is.



It could very well be.

But it's an awefully big coincidence, doncha think? :bible:
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

It could very well be.

But it's an awefully big coincidence, doncha think? :bible:


Not really. Such a theory would seem to make the English Bible either the only preserved line or somehow special above others.

If not, then it would seem each language would have to have 7 Bible translations before they could have a perfect one too.

Of course none of this takes into account how this effects those Bibles translated into other languages after English. Nor does it factor in which base language Bible they translated from or whether they went with what manuscripts, both, or several of each.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

One can manipulate pretty much any number to create coincidences and call them "acts of God"....

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

One can manipulate pretty much any number to create coincidences and call them "acts of God"....


A bit off topic but Dr. David Jeremiah pointed this out when he gave several names of those predicted to be the anti-christ over the years. Those doing the predicting would use various mathematical means to do so and if one means didn't give them the results they wanted they would us another! :rolleyes:
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Not really. Such a theory would seem to make the English Bible either the only preserved line or somehow special above others.



First and foremost, I will readily admit that the "seven translations" thing it is just a theory to me. I do, however, personally believe that the perfect word of God today is found in English, just as at one time it was only found in Greek or Hebrew. This doesn't mean that the KJBs in other languages are corrupt and should not be used though!

When it comes to the Bible issue, it always comes down to comparisions in the end. I can speak, read, write, and translate in Melanesian Pigin having lived in Papua New Guinea for two years. In James 5:16, in our English KJB it says to "Confess your faults...". The Pigin KJB says to "Confess your sins...". There is a HUGE difference!

In the entire time I was there, I (nor any other KJVO Baptist that I know of) never went around trying to rip the Pigin KJB out of those people's hands. But I'm not going to stand there and say that it's the perfect word of God, when there is a HUGE difference in that verse. We're not talking about "thee's and thou's" there, that is a major doctrinal difference and that is a Catholic rendering of the verse.


If not, then it would seem each language would have to have 7 Bible translations before they could have a perfect one too.



Not really. If you believe that the KJB is the eventual fulfillment of that passage, then anything that is a exact translation of the English KJB is perfect as well.


Of course none of this takes into account how this effects those Bibles translated into other languages after English. Nor does it factor in which base language Bible they translated from or whether they went with what manuscripts, both, or several of each.



If someone goes back to the Greek to translate the Bible into a new language, they are basically reinventing the wheel. If you believe that God's perfect and preserved word is in English, why would you go back to the original languages when you have to contend with a ton of different manuscripts that all disagree with each other, not to mention a simpler language that means it could be translated incorrectly?

Like I said earlier, there are less words in Greek, so when you go from Greek to English you have multiple options to choose from. I translated the KJV Daniel from English to Pigin and had to endure the same process - in reverse! It was terrible at times trying to express in a simpler language than English the richness that we have in our Bible. I hope we all appreciate how blessed with are with our English KJB. Words like "sin", "iniquity", and "transgression" all have the same word in Pigin - but English they are three different words with three different definitions, though the definitions may overlap somewhat.

Greek and Hebrew are simpler languages than English, though they seem to be worship by modern day scholarship. Here's an example. The word "dulos" in Greek means servant or slave. Big difference between the two. If you believe that the English KJB is God's perfect word, why would you go back to the Greek when you were translating into a different language and maybe translate it slave when it is servant in the English KJB? If you translate it slave when the KJB says servant - does that now make the Enlish KJB no longer the word of God because you used a different word? Of course not! So what happens then?
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Just a couple of points of clarification from Rick S., please.

1. Your assertion that the Greek has less words than English. Upon what information is that predicated?

2. Your lack of assertion that Hebrew has more or less words than English. If that (the number of words available in a language) is a criterion for preservation/accuracy/validity why do you not mention it?

3. Your testimony that you had difficulty in translating the Bible from KJ English to Pidgin. Do you assert that you were or were not directly inspired as you did this work? I am unable to determine from the totality of your posts if you are declaring that the KJ was inspired in English and everything else, including your Pidgin work is inferior, or if you are declaring something else?

I'd like to read your answers to have a better understanding of what you are trying to communicate and upon what your point of view is reliant before commenting further.

Edited by 4everHis
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Just a couple of points of clarification from Rick S., please.

1. Your assertion that the Greek has less words than English. Upon what information is that predicated?



I learned it in Bible School, sorry, no citations off hand here. If I have time after I get home from work tonight, around 12:30, I'll see if I can find something for you.


2. Your lack of assertion that Hebrew has more or less words than English. If that (the number of words available in a language) is a criterion for preservation/accuracy/validity why do you not mention it?



The number of words in a language is not criteria for preservation/accuracy/validity.

The promise of God is:

Prov. 12:6-7, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
[7] Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Let me ask you a question, where are these words?



3. Your testimony that you had difficulty in translating the Bible from KJ English to Pidgin. Do you assert that you were or were not directly inspired as you did this work? I am unable to determine from the totality of your posts if you are declaring that the KJ was inspired in English and everything else, including your Pidgin work is inferior, or if you are declaring something else?

I'd like to read your answers to have a better understanding of what you are trying to communicate and upon what your point of view is reliant before commenting further.



I don't believe I was inspired as I did that work. I prayed a lot, and I believe the Lord helped me, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I was inspired in the sense that you are talking about.

As to whether or not the King James is inspired, I don't know. But I believe it is the perfect word of God, and until someone can produce a contradiction from an original document (which there are none) I will continue to believe it is based upon Ps. 12:6-7.

People pratically worship the Greek and anyone who can use a Lexicon. Bible study has turned into Greek study.

Did you know that Phileo and Agape mean the same exact thing? It's a myth that they are separate types of love. Now, at the same time, people try to bunch the word "love" in as being the same thing as "charity". Did you know that they are different?
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

In Gail Riplinger's Book, "The Language of the King James Bible" on chapter six paragraph one she says that the English language contains around 1 millions words, and that English dictionaries usually contain around 500,000.

I'll get back with you on how many words are in first century Greek.

Edited by Rick Schworer
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Now, at the same time, people try to bunch the word "love" in as being the same thing as "charity". Did you know that they are different?


I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here. Both of these words have multiple meanings and among those there is overlap. Properly used, there can be interchange but they can most certainly be improperly interchanged. If this is what you are speaking of, as regards MVs, for example, which place the word "love" in First Corinthians 13 rather than the word "charity" as the KJB does, then most often this is taken wrongly and often preached wrongly.

Ok, no point me speculating, I'll await your expounding.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here. Both of these words have multiple meanings and among those there is overlap. Properly used, there can be interchange but they can most certainly be improperly interchanged. If this is what you are speaking of, as regards MVs, for example, which place the word "love" in First Corinthians 13 rather than the word "charity" as the KJB does, then most often this is taken wrongly and often preached wrongly.

Ok, no point me speculating, I'll await your expounding.


My overall point is this:

Modern Bible teachers and preachers, usually liberal non-IFB ones, bloviate needlessly about the nuances, richness, and greatness of the "original Greek" (insert a rolling of the "r" sound). Modern "scholars" cannot go fifteen minutes without doing this or without expounding upon a verse by going back to the Greek instead of DEEPER into their Bible. The idea of the superiority of the original languages is POUNDED into the minds of people to the point that they feel inadequate and can't really know the deep truth of the scriptures without knowing Greek.... or seeking a man.

This was the standard operating procedure of the Roman Catholic Church during the dark ages. Get the people to rely on MEN for the truth, because the common people could not possibly interpret the scriptures on their own. Thank God for William Tyndale who did something about it and said, "I defy the Pope, and all his laws; and if God spares my life, ere many years, I will cause the boy that driveth the plow to know more of the Scriptures than thou dost!"

Christians do not need a man to know the deepness and the richness of the truth of God's word. They can find it in their English Bible. And by cross referencing words in English to other passages they can find a lot more truth and richness then by delving into the original languages, and that way they learn their Bible not Greek. If a word or thought is hard to understand, looking at how the word is used in other passages is the best way to understand it. But this is not what is taught, either directly or indirectly by modern Christian leaders.

That's the praticle aspect of where I'm coming from on this. On the technical side, as I said before, there are many cases where a lone Greek word can have several different English words it could be interpreted into. Hence, going back to the Greek could lead to a false interpretation, but studying the verse according to what other verses in your Bible says will certainly not do that.

Sure, there are a couple Greek words that are kind of interesting, one such example would be "farmicah" - it's where we get the word pharmacy from and that word is used in Revelation in correlation with the unrepentant. You could say they're all hooked on drugs. On the other hand, you could look up the phrase "son of perdition" in the Bible and find out it is only used for two people. The Antichrist, and Judas Iscariot. Then you could speculate that like John the Baptist came in the "spirit and power" of Elijah, perhaps the Antichrist will be similar to Judas Iscariot. You won't find that in the Greek. I have no prOBlem with people using a dictionary, a modern version, a commentary, or a Greek lexicon - but the first choice in interpreting scripture should ALWAYS be other scripture passages, and by and large with modern Christianity it is not.

On to love and charity. Yes, the definitions do overlap, just like fornication and adultery overlap, but they are two different things. You hear modern Bible scholars expound upon the richness of the Greek and about phileo and agape are two separate types of love (which is a lie, they are the same, and I can prove that by scripture if anyone wants me to), but you NEVER hear them talking about how "love" and "charity" are two separate types of love.

I love my wife. I can say it all day long, but putting that love into pratice is what makes a difference. What Paul is saying is unless you put love into pratice, it's worthless. These modern Bibles destroy that meaning by changing the word "charity" to "love" - they are not the same. Charity is love in action. You can say you love the Bible - and you can REALLY ACTUALLY love your Bible, but if you never study it (putting that love into action), it's pointless. You can truely love your kids, but if you never put it into pratice your love is worthless. That's another "nugget" you won't find in the Greek. Edited by Rick Schworer
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint. No need to look up the amount of words. I already am in possession of the answer, so please get some much needed rest! :)

I agree with Bro. Matt on the idea of inspiration and preservation.

I don't want to do or to say something that makes you feel put upon. (I read another thread before getting to this one and saw that you might be feeling less than welcomed.) I see that you have come for fellowship and I take you at your word.

Have a great day and may God bless all of the midweek services represented on this board!

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint. No need to look up the amount of words. I already am in possession of the answer, so please get some much needed rest! :)

I agree with Bro. Matt on the idea of inspiration and preservation.

I don't want to do or to say something that makes you feel put upon. (I read another thread before getting to this one and saw that you might be feeling less than welcomed.) I see that you have come for fellowship and I take you at your word.

Have a great day and may God bless all of the midweek services represented on this board!


Thank you for your very kind words, I appreciate the sentiment.

I don't mind continuing the discussion, I encourage it. In my mind, it is a friendly discussion not an argument, I'm not trying to play bait and switch with anyone here; I'm simply putting forth what I believe on the subject. If it turns into a stereotypical "You're only saying that because you're a...", then I have better things to do then reason with the unreasonable. I hate arguments, if I'm going to argue it had better be with a Mormon, Catholic, or JW - not a fellow Bible Believer. We're only discussing particulars here.

I spoke to my old Greek teacher (I took a year of Greek in Bible college and hated it :)) last night on the phone, and he reiterated my sentiments about the number of words. My Greek grammar book didn't list the number of words, but Strong's concordance said there are about 6,000 different words in the Greek New Testament. Riplinger's book put the number of English words at 8,000, showing more clarity and variety in English than Greek.

As far as the comparison between the two languages, I'm borrowing his Greek Lexicon tonight so that will show how many words are in first century Greek. What is spoken today is not what the non extant originals were written in.

Like I said earlier, this is only one side of the coin, the technical side. The practical side involves history, faith, and authority.

Oh, and I don't work tonight or tomorrow night. :)
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

My overall point is this:

Modern Bible teachers and preachers, usually liberal non-IFB ones, bloviate needlessly about the nuances, richness, and greatness of the "original Greek" (insert a rolling of the "r" sound). Modern "scholars" cannot go fifteen minutes without doing this or without expounding upon a verse by going back to the Greek instead of DEEPER into their Bible. The idea of the superiority of the original languages is POUNDED into the minds of people to the point that they feel inadequate and can't really know the deep truth of the scriptures without knowing Greek.... or seeking a man.

This was the standard operating procedure of the Roman Catholic Church during the dark ages. Get the people to rely on MEN for the truth, because the common people could not possibly interpret the scriptures on their own. Thank God for William Tyndale who did something about it and said, "I defy the Pope, and all his laws; and if God spares my life, ere many years, I will cause the boy that driveth the plow to know more of the Scriptures than thou dost!"

Christians do not need a man to know the deepness and the richness of the truth of God's word. They can find it in their English Bible. And by cross referencing words in English to other passages they can find a lot more truth and richness then by delving into the original languages, and that way they learn their Bible not Greek. If a word or thought is hard to understand, looking at how the word is used in other passages is the best way to understand it. But this is not what is taught, either directly or indirectly by modern Christian leaders.

That's the praticle aspect of where I'm coming from on this. On the technical side, as I said before, there are many cases where a lone Greek word can have several different English words it could be interpreted into. Hence, going back to the Greek could lead to a false interpretation, but studying the verse according to what other verses in your Bible says will certainly not do that.

Sure, there are a couple Greek words that are kind of interesting, one such example would be "farmicah" - it's where we get the word pharmacy from and that word is used in Revelation in correlation with the unrepentant. You could say they're all hooked on drugs. On the other hand, you could look up the phrase "son of perdition" in the Bible and find out it is only used for two people. The Antichrist, and Judas Iscariot. Then you could speculate that like John the Baptist came in the "spirit and power" of Elijah, perhaps the Antichrist will be similar to Judas Iscariot. You won't find that in the Greek. I have no prOBlem with people using a dictionary, a modern version, a commentary, or a Greek lexicon - but the first choice in interpreting scripture should ALWAYS be other scripture passages, and by and large with modern Christianity it is not.

On to love and charity. Yes, the definitions do overlap, just like fornication and adultery overlap, but they are two different things. You hear modern Bible scholars expound upon the richness of the Greek and about phileo and agape are two separate types of love (which is a lie, they are the same, and I can prove that by scripture if anyone wants me to), but you NEVER hear them talking about how "love" and "charity" are two separate types of love.

I love my wife. I can say it all day long, but putting that love into pratice is what makes a difference. What Paul is saying is unless you put love into pratice, it's worthless. These modern Bibles destroy that meaning by changing the word "charity" to "love" - they are not the same. Charity is love in action. You can say you love the Bible - and you can REALLY ACTUALLY love your Bible, but if you never study it (putting that love into action), it's pointless. You can truely love your kids, but if you never put it into pratice your love is worthless. That's another "nugget" you won't find in the Greek.


:thumb: Very clear and I'm right there with ya!

Scripture interpretting Scripture with the guidance of the Holy Ghost! :thumb:

I've heard, read and encountered those who get rather big-headed with their "knowledge" of Greek and they love to correct the Bible they are using; whether the KJB or an MV. Not all are big-headed, but even those who are not often fall into the correcting area. I can't count the number of times I've heard or read a pastor commenting on a verse, turning to the Greek and then proclaiming the verse could have, should have been better translated thus and thus. In one breath they are correcting the Scriptures and proclaiming themselves to be greater authorities than the translators of the Bible in his hands.

Absolutely a very great difference between charity (love in action) and the generic love used in MVs. Most often the term love in First Corinthians 13 is thought of or even taught as the feely type of love. Some even view such akin to the hippy concept of love where they would give flowers to folks and try to smile all day and speak pleasant words of love. (where's the barfy smilie!)

Our love is not to be a mushy, gushy, feely love but a love of action; as the KJB imparts by using the word charity rather than love. Faith without works is dead. Love without action is mush. :icon_mrgreen:

Great post. Thanks for taking the time on that!
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