Members Timothy Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 Calm down there if you are in a church where they take your money and do not do with it what they say then it is a scam, but you believe that urging or teaching people to give to missions is wrong I don't care who came up with the idea, I do care what you do with it and how its used, Our church uses it and we support and send out many missionaries, evangelists , and church planters. Our church of 80 regulars gave 70,000 last year and we will eclipse that this year, why because we want to spread the word throughout the world, do I think you have to do this the same way, no, but why put down or tell people that it is evil just Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zealyouthguy Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 I have been saved for 21 years. I have also been fleeced by several pastors who used "cunningly devised fables" to rake in a whole lot of dough. I see Faith Promise for what it is - a scam. I am obeying God by giving tithes and offerings each time I get paid. Financial support for missionaries is to come through the free will offerings of the people and not some man made money making machine. I truly feel sorry for you if you see giving to see people saved as a scam. I doubt we have very much that we are in agreement on... BTW, you can give whatever you want, I have never met a pastor worth his salt that would want to take any offering from someone who so grudgingly feels as you do. I thank God that there are people and churches concerned enough about giving to spread the gospel and don't appoint malicious, slanderous motives to it. You act as if your pastor gets rich off of missions giving... I suppose you miss the irony of "a man made scheme" dealing with money... which is an artificial, man made media for exchange of wealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JJJ4given Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 I don't have a whole bunch of time to tear into your article, so I will ask simply... How many missionaries does your church support and how do they do it? How about you personally? 9 Missionaries and we require them to come in and present to us where they stand, we require a doctrinal statement from their sending church, and we pray as a congregation about who we will support and who we won't support. We also require them to send letters and to visit us every couple of years to report what they are doing. We're a church of about 55 people. We do not use any of these programs. I guess we are just a tad old fashion. :smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JJJ4given Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what they right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Neither by any other oath... seems we are to do a lot more doing and a lot less promising. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RayJr Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what they right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Neither by any other oath... seems we are to do a lot more doing and a lot less promising. Just a thought... I agree, thats why what you promise to give is only between you and God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brosmith Posted November 6, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 ... thats why what you promise to give is only between you and God. If what you say is really true then why do churches use commitment cards? Commitment cards are not necessary if people are really giving by faith and if the church is really receiving by faith. If "Faith Promise Giving" is biblical then why do we not find examples of such giving in the Bible? Every time giving is mentioned in the Bible it is believers giving out of what they have at that particular present time, not what they will acquire in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pneu-engine Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 If what you say is really true then why do churches use commitment cards? Commitment cards are not necessary if people are really giving by faith and if the church is really receiving by faith. If "Faith Promise Giving" is biblical then why do we not find examples of such giving in the Bible? Every time giving is mentioned in the Bible it is believers giving out of what they have at that particular present time, not what they will acquire in the future. Our church requests not to know who the individual givers are and their amounts. The treasurer knows but he is affirmed to secrecy. The church only needs the final total of all promises so they can plan accordingly. There isn't anything "new-fashioned" about this either. When the new believers in Acts brought their money and laid it at the Apostles feet, we don't see the Apostles keeping personal records on anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brosmith Posted November 6, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 When the new believers in Acts brought their money and laid it at the Apostles feet' date=' we don't see the Apostles keeping personal records on anybody.[/quote'] We also don't see people promising to give something either. They gave out of their present possessions not future expectactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chev1958 Posted November 6, 2007 Members Share Posted November 6, 2007 We also don't see people promising to give something either. They gave out of their present possessions not future expectactions.Using this rationale, we shouldn't keep membership roles, have Sunday School, keep track of tithes and offerings for tax purposes, or meet less than daily in the "temple." Actually, door-knocking is not mentioned specifically either. From your point of view, churches shouldn't give missionaries monthly support because the church is promising that support based on "future expectations." The Faith Promise program is an administrative way to determine what the church's missions budget will look like over the next year. My experience is that no one knows who's promised to give what amount. The cards are collected - unsigned - and the numbers are tabulated to see how much money the church can expect. Depending on what is promised determines whether new missionaries are taken on or the possibility that others may have to be dropped. No action is officially taken until necessary, but it does allow the church leaders to peek into the future a little bit. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Our church requests not to know who the individual givers are and their amounts. The treasurer knows but he is affirmed to secrecy. The church only needs the final total of all promises so they can plan accordingly. My church does it more or less the same way... Except no one at all knows...Faith promise is not a heavy burden. If God doesn't provide, you can't pay it. You are promising God that if he provides (whatever amount you've prayed amount) that you will give it... the burden is on God, not you and me. That is exactly what my church teaches... But it is not something I personally agree with... If you do that you have to define "provide". Is it going to be the first "bill" you pay regardless of if you have enough to pay your housing, food, electric, etc. bills? If it is I respect that. That is faith and I am sure God would honor that just as he honored the widows mites... She cast in her mites when she had NOTHING else. However no one could say doing that is not something of a "burden"(not that a burden is always a bad thing). If on the other hand one views God "providing" money only if you have money that is "left over" many people would wind up not giving anything at all. Most people have other things that they "could" spend the money on, but they "choose" to give it to God instead. If I was going to actually participate in a faith promise program I would have to make it the first "bill" I paid no matter if I had enough for other bills or not in order to feel honest about it. So I think the commonly preached "don't give if God doesn't give it to you" it is misleading. Most of us technically "have" more than we can afford. God gave it to us. In no place in scripture do you see God honoring people bringing him "leftovers". So it would not be honest to pay it as anything else but the first bill. We are to give him the firstfruits. If you are willing to give your "faith promise" even if doing so means you can't pay your other bills great, but if not I think it is foolish to make one. After all I think most of us know the verses about vowing a vow to God and not paying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JJJ4given Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 Using this rationale, we shouldn't keep membership roles, have Sunday School, keep track of tithes and offerings for tax purposes, or meet less than daily in the "temple." Actually, door-knocking is not mentioned specifically either. From your point of view, churches shouldn't give missionaries monthly support because the church is promising that support based on "future expectations." The Faith Promise program is an administrative way to determine what the church's missions budget will look like over the next year. My experience is that no one knows who's promised to give what amount. The cards are collected - unsigned - and the numbers are tabulated to see how much money the church can expect. Depending on what is promised determines whether new missionaries are taken on or the possibility that others may have to be dropped. No action is officially taken until necessary, but it does allow the church leaders to peek into the future a little bit. Mitch The idea of not making promises is as applicable today as it was in the NT. First, let's examine James again: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Jesus Christ even said: Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. The consequence is that you could "fall into condemnation." You could end up breaking your word and harming the testimony of Christ. You don't know the future any more than Paul or James didn't know the future so making promises is something that should not be done. We can see this same principal applied in Paul's life in 2nd Corinthians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Colin Stolzer Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 De 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine INCREASE the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: De 16:15 Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine INCREASE, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice. De 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine INCREASE the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled; 2ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the INCREASE of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly. Pr 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine INCREASE: These are just a few I can find alot more if anyone is interested, but I think it proves out that God didn't have an expectation even in the OT that people would tithe if they didn't have an increase in wealth. So why do I hear from alot of pulpits today that the tithe has to come first before everything else when even God didn't expect you to tithe when you couldn't pay your debt? I'm not talking about debts created by wants but by debts created by living. If you Farm (just an example) and you borrow money to plant and then you don't get enough harvest to pay for the loan then you don't have an increase and shouldn't tithe but living here in rural kansas I hear it from the pulpit all the time that you should always tithe first. And to have the expectation that you should promise something in missions and hold God accountable to your faith promise, when you can't overcome the daily debt of living so you can even give offerings with a joyful heart is just wrong. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zealyouthguy Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 De 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine INCREASE the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: De 16:15 Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine INCREASE, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice. De 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine INCREASE the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled; 2ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the INCREASE of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly. Pr 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine INCREASE: These are just a few I can find alot more if anyone is interested, but I think it proves out that God didn't have an expectation even in the OT that people would tithe if they didn't have an increase in wealth. So why do I hear from alot of pulpits today that the tithe has to come first before everything else when even God didn't expect you to tithe when you couldn't pay your debt? I'm not talking about debts created by wants but by debts created by living. If you Farm (just an example) and you borrow money to plant and then you don't get enough harvest to pay for the loan then you don't have an increase and shouldn't tithe but living here in rural kansas I hear it from the pulpit all the time that you should always tithe first. And to have the expectation that you should promise something in missions and hold God accountable to your faith promise, when you can't overcome the daily debt of living so you can even give offerings with a joyful heart is just wrong. C well if you want to get uberbiblical.... if you can't farm without borrowing to do it, perhaps you should not farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Colin Stolzer Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 How about I restate it for you then let's say you go down and buy seed and plant it and at the end of the harvest season your crop yield has failed you have spent more in farming (cost of seed, fertilizer, fuel, etc.) than what you have harvested in cash value, now would you explain to me how that is an increase to tithe, offer or promise off of? No loan mentioned here so you can skip the usary part and so now can you tell me biblically speaking how it works? Thankfully I don't farm nor do I borrow money, I cash rent my farm ground and use that to work my livestock but the analogy works in most business applications including plain old employment, if your cost of living is higher than your income you do not have any increase. Back to the question why is the increase part always left out of the sermon and only the firstfruits brought into it? C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Pastor Matt Posted November 7, 2007 Administrators Share Posted November 7, 2007 Everytime giving is mentioned in the Bible' date=' people gave what they had at that particular time.[/quote']Faith Promise is giving what you have. Unless churches start taking credit cards, it is hard to give something you do not have. In Faith Promise, you give what God provided for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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