Does God love sinners?

[hayesy]

There is a saying going around at the moment: "God hates the sin but loves the sinners."
Is it Biblical? Does God love everybody?

(Note: I don't know myself, and I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. Just hoping to have a helpful discussion and work out if the saying is Biblical.)

I know that God is love, and I know that God so loved the world, and I know that while we were still sinners Christ died for us, but then there are a lot of Bible references to God hating people. I googled it and found this list:
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Spiritu ... inners.htm

A sample:
Psalm 10:3: ?For the wicked... blesseth the covetous, WHOM THE LORD ABHORRETH.?

Psalm 11:5-7: ?The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...?

Psalm 50:22: ?Now consider this, ye that forget God, LEST I TEAR YOU IN PIECES, AND THERE BE NONE TO DELIVER.?
Psalm 78:59: ?When God heard this He was wroth, and GREATLY ABHORRED ISRAEL.?
Psalm 106:40: ?Therefore was the wrath of the Lord kindled against His people, insomuch that HE ABHORRED HIS OWN INHERITANCE.?

What do you guys think?
Does God love everyone? Even sinners? Are there 'levels' of love?

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God died for sinners but not every sinner is saved. God left the choice up to sinner as to whether they will accept or reject His Son, Jesus Christ. John 3:16-18

[Jerry]

There are plenty of verses that clearly teach God loves the lost - though He never refers to the lost as His beloved - so yes, there is a difference in His love for the saved and for the lost.

Look at those verses you quoted: God's hatred for a particular sinner/worker of evil are in reference to those who will not turn to Him and repent - in other words, those who reject His salvation and still choose to work their evil in spite of Him.

[heartstrings]

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God died for sinners but not every sinner is saved. God left the choice up to sinner as to whether they will accept or reject His Son, Jesus Christ. John 3:16-18

He loved us while we were sinners.

Hayesy,
What did God tell us to do?

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Why did He tell us that? Because the children are supposed to act like the father.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

If we are supposed to love our enemies, how much greater does God love His?

[BibleBeliever123]

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

What about these verses?

[hayesy]

There are plenty of verses that clearly teach God loves the lost - though He never refers to the lost as His beloved - so yes, there is a difference in His love for the saved and for the lost.

Look at those verses you quoted: God's hatred for a particular sinner/worker of evil are in reference to those who will not turn to Him and repent - in other words, those who reject His salvation and still choose to work their evil in spite of Him.

That's helpful, thanks. So, all in all, do you think the saying "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" is Biblical?

[tired]

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

What about these verses?

When you sin does God hate you?

[Madeline]

It is often the case in scripture that two things which appear to be contradictory to human logic are in reality both equally true. I believe the essential reason for this is that human logic is bounded by what the eye sees and ear hears, but God and all the wondrous truths about Him are invisible and inaudible to human eyes and ears - apart from faith. So for example we believers in the plan of God before time began, and yet we make genuine and truly free choices here in time, the most important of which are believing in and following our Lord. God wants all to be saved (Ezek.18:23; Matt.18:14; Jn.12:47; 1Tim.2:4; 2Tim.2:24-26; 2Pet.3:9). He will also condemn the vast majority of human kind to the lake of fire for all eternity (Matt.25:41-46; Rev.20:11-15). This may seem like a contradiction to the uninitiated, but most believers will understand right away, seeing with the eyes of faith, that the distinction lies in the lap of those condemned: God wanted them to be saved, but they had to make the decision to choose for Him, for Christ, and rejected Him and Christ instead. Therefore it should be no great surprise that God's attitude toward sin and sinners is, on the one hand, negative, since sin represents at its base rejection of Him and His will, but on the other hand, since He has made a way for sinners to enter the holy of holies in heaven through the blood of His dear Son sacrificed on behalf of the whole world, that He welcomes all sinners to be sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ. This seemingly aparrent contradiction here lies in the lap of human beings and their conscious choices, either to seek refuge in the Rock and the forgiveness that comes through faith in Christ, or stumble over it as a stumbling block instead. God is consistent. We are the ones who contradict all true logic by failing to appreciate what He has done for us and by failing to respond with complete joy and obedience to His unfathomable mercy.

Love,
Madeline

[Timothy]

This is the only post that I will make in this thread, but does anyone make a note that the verses that says that God hates sinners are in the OT?

[Brother Parrish]

Hate and love, two very powerful words...
Hayesy, this article may help you?from apologeticspress...

Does God Hate Sinners?
by Kyle Butt, M.A.

"...How, then, can one reconcile the verses that seem to suggest that God hates sinners, but loves them at the same time? One of the most plausible solutions is that the Bible writers are using a figure of speech called metonymy when they write that God hates sinners. Metonymy is defined as: ?A figure by which one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation? (Bullinger, 1898, p. 538). Bullinger further explains that metonymy can be ?of cause,? when the person acting can be put in place of the thing that is done (p. 539). For instance, in Luke 16:29, the text says: ?They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.? In reality, they did not have ?Moses? or the ?prophets,? but they did have their writings. The name Moses is a metonymy that stood for his writings, since he was the cause of the writings. In modern times, that would be like saying, ?I hate Shakespeare.? Would the person who said that mean that he hated Shakespeare?s personality? No. We understand he would be saying he does not like the writings of Shakespeare, with no comment on the playwright?s personality.

If we apply that same figure of speech to the passages about God ?hating sinners,? we can see that the sinner is put in place of the sin. Thus, when God says He hates ?a false witness who speaks lies? (Proverbs 6:19), if metonymy is being used, then God hates the lies, and the one who is doing the lying (the cause) is put in place of the lies (the effect). It is interesting to see how clear this feature can be in other contexts. For instance, Proverbs 6:17 says that God hates ?a lying tongue.? Does that mean that God hates a physical tongue, made of muscle and body tissue? No. It means God hates the sin that a tongue can perform. In the same context, we learn that God hates ?feet that are swift in running to evil? (6:18). Again, does that mean that God hates physical feet? No. It simply means that God hates the sin that those feet can perform. It is interesting that while few, if any, would suggest that God hates physical tongues or actual feet, they would insist that God hates actual sinners and not the sin done by them.

When studying the Bible, it is very important to keep in mind that the Bible writers often used figures of speech. When we look at the idea that God hates sin, but loves sinners, the figure of speech known as metonymy clears up the confusion. Just as God does not hate physical feet or tongues, He does not hate sinners. These nouns are put in the place of the things they cause?sin."
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3170

[Jerry]

This is the only post that I will make in this thread' date=' but does anyone make a note that the verses that says that God hates sinners are in the OT?[/quote']

Not sure of your point. The OT still taught in types and certain passages that God accepts the believer completely in Christ.

[hayesy]

Interesting point Timothy. The site I linked to gave these NT references:
Romans 9:13: ?As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.?
I Corinthians 16:22: ?If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].?
James 4:4: ?Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is ENMITY (or HATRED) WITH GOD? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an ENEMY OF GOD.?
I Peter 3:12: ?For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL.?
Revelation 14:10-11: ?[sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...?

Brother Parrish, thanks that was also helpful. I appreciate that there are literary techniques in the Bible, but it still feels odd to ascribe so many verses to that. When I get a chance I might see if it works in the contexts. (Read: sometime next week )

[Brother Parrish]

Hayesy, I didn't say I believed it, I just thought it might help you. :Green
It's an excellent discussion.
I guess the Fred Phelps family would have their own spin on this, but without taking it to those extremes?it could be construed that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.

Sometimes I feel that way about computers, LOL.

It's been a while since I taught this in Sunday School, but I'll give it a shot...

It is important to remember, that POSITIONALLY there is a different standing for the redeemed as opposed to unbelievers. Unbelievers are like a building destined for destruction?they are condemned already due to their unbelief (John 3:18). The unbeliever who is actively rejecting God's love is in a position of sin?he is the ENEMY OF GOD. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10

It could probably be argued that the unbeliever is not only a sinner?but positionally HE IS SIN.
We often hear "God hates the sin," well,?there you are.
Look carefully at the KJV text in this verse:
"For he hath MADE HIM TO BE SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

He not only is sinning, he is positionally titled "SINNER,"?he was made that way by Adam's sin.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS." Romans 5:19

Watch this now...
The unbeliever has the opportunity to avoid God's hatred?because of God's love.
I say again?it seems that God has a love/hate relationship with sinners.

How can this God of the Hebrews both hate and love at the same time?
Well the verses are pretty clear?God is love, but He is also a man of war. (Exodus 15:3)
The same sun which nourishes one plant, can easily destroy another.
The soul that is not clothed in God's righteousness (Jesus)?will feel God's hatred.

When a believer sins, (as we all have done) they are CHASTISED as opposed to being hated. Why? Because of adoption. Despite the humanists claims?the inhabitants of earth are not all the children of God. The believer on the hand, has the spirit of adoption?he is a true child of God.

God loved everyone (the world) enough to pay for their sins, but until they repent, His hatred for those who defy Him and His hatred for their sin is not reduced.
(Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15).

[hayesy]

I guess the Fred Phelps family would have their own spin on this' date='[/quote']
::Shudders::
I listened to a(n old) WoTM episode today in which Todd played some Fred Phelps clips.... horrendous stuff...

[Madeline]

***Double Post***