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GIANTS in ancient history - the Nephilim


Brother Parrish
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1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:1-6 (KJV)

Verse 4 is quite clear, the sons of God had children by the daughters of men.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 (KJV)

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:1 (KJV)

sons of God is fallen angels.


None of those verses contains the word "angels".
Please show me a passage which at least describes or defines a son of God as being an angel.


Direct Definitons

Sons of God This verse describes how to become a son of God. John 1:12

Sons of God This one tells that they are "led by the Spirit of God" Romans 8:14

Sons of God This one says they will be "manifested" in the future. Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. If angels are sons of God, are they going to be manifested too?

Sons of God are believers Philippians 2:15

Sons of God are believers 1 John 3:1

u]Sons of God are believers 1 John 3:2
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And your view does not prove that they're not fallen angels.

I said in our last discussion on this, I can agree to disagree on this.

But it sure does not make sense that godly men marrying daughters of men would cause anything so evil that would cause God to bring on a flood and destroy everyone but Noah and his family.

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None of those verses contains the word "angels".
Please show me a passage which at least describes or defines a son of God as being an angel.


Direct Definitons

Sons of God This verse describes how to become a son of God. John 1:12

Sons of God This one tells that they are "led by the Spirit of God" Romans 8:14

Sons of God This one says they will be "manifested" in the future. Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. If angels are sons of God, are they going to be manifested too?

Sons of God are believers Philippians 2:15

Sons of God are believers 1 John 3:1

u]Sons of God are believers 1 John 3:2


I have, but your rejecting them, and you better believe I know all about those verses your using from the New Testament.

Sons of God is not humans in Job 1 & 2 nor in Genesis 6.
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But it sure does not make sense that godly men marrying daughters of men would cause anything so evil that would cause God to bring on a flood and destroy everyone but Noah and his family.


Consider an earth with a population similar to ours today - if you have the righteous compromising with the wicked, and all the wicked living wickedly, it makes sense that the world is ripe for judgment - as ours will certainly be soon.
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And your view does not prove that they're not fallen angels.

I said in our last discussion on this, I can agree to disagree on this.

But it sure does not make sense that godly men marrying daughters of men would cause anything so evil that would cause God to bring on a flood and destroy everyone but Noah and his family.


Brother,
The Bible does not say "marrying daughters of men" caused God to bring the flood. It DOES NOT say that.
These are the reasons God brought the flood:
1. WICKEDNESS The Bible says the "wickedness of MAN was great"
2. THOUGHTS The thoughts of MAN'S heart were continually evil.
3. VIOLENCE The earth was filled with violence.
4. CORRUPTION The earth was corrupt.
5. GRIEF The Bible says it "grieved Him at His heart"
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heartstrings, I'm not going to go no further with you, you keep on telling me things I already know and we are going no where.

Jerry, No doubt, it rightly seems to me we are ripe for judgment, for it does seem man is doing every imagination that comes to his mind at this point in time and there is no limit to the sin he will commit. And besides that, mankind is getting very open with his sin to the point of bragging about it.

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Sons of God is not humans in Job 1 & 2 nor in Genesis 6.


For cryin' out loud, man! The Bible don't say they are not humans!

I have, but your rejecting them.........

Brotherman, NONE of those verses uses the word ANGELS!! It only says "sons of God"!
Read the verses you posted, do YOU see the word ANGELS??
Do you find a BIBLE verse ANYWHERE which states: "sons of God are angels"???
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If you will go back, you will find that Jerry said they were angels spoken of in Job as sons of God, but he disagrees with me, he doesn't think they are fallen angels.

So you need to go back and read the post, you've missed quite a bit.

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Heartstrings... For cryin' out loud, man!
Calm down and listen up, you might learn something son!
I already told you, the SONS OF GOD are always angels in the OT.
Who do you think they were in Job 38:6-7, MORMONS? Mankind had not been created!
Well, that's what you are implying, that's what Mormons teach, you can read about that here:
http://epologetics.org/sonsofgod.php

Your dogmatic approach is only showing your lack of understanding, and you sound more and more like God's men you were mocking earlier. At some point I hope you will see that your view is not the only one around...

"The sons of God ('bene elohim' and variants) are divine members of God's heavenly host...The title 'sons/children of God' is familiar from Ugaritic mythology, in which the gods collectively are the 'children of El'...The sons/children of God are also found in Phoenician and Ammonite inscriptions, referring to the pantheon of sub-ordinate deities, indicating that the term was widespread in the West Semitic religions." - Oxford Companion to the Bible

"A meeting of the angels in heaven. They are the sons of God, ch. 38:7. They came to give an account of their negotiations on earth and to receive new instructions. Satan was one of them originally; but how hast thou fallen, O Lucifer!" - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible

"Sons of God - The angels called the sons of God, because they had their whole being from him, and because they were made partakers of his Divine and glorious image. Shouted - Rejoiced in and blessed God for his works, whereby he intimates, that they neither did advise or any way assist him, nor dislike or censure any of his works, as Job had presumed to do." John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

Who were the sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4?
http://www.gotquestions.org/sons-of-God.html

"?Sons of God? is clearly used of angels in Job 38:7. The Septuagint (LXX) here translates ?sons of God? as ?angels of God.? This need not mean that evil angels, or demons, actually cohabited with women. Nevertheless, evil angels on earth could have used the bodies of ungodly men, by demonic possession, to achieve their evil purpose of producing an evil generation of people" (Gen. 6:12)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/ar ... hilim9.asp

"The Jewish Fathers, when interpreting this expression from Genesis 6:2, invariably interpreted it as "angels." No less an authority than W.F. Allbright tells us that:

"The Israelites who heard this section (Genesis 6.2) recited unquestionably thought of intercourse between angels and women." (8)

Philo of Alexandria, a deeply religious man, wrote a brief but beautiful treatise on this subject, called "Concerning The Giants." Basing his exposition on the Greek version of the Bible, he renders it as "Angels of God." Says Bamberger, "Had he found the phrase 'sons of God' in his text, he most certainly would have been inspired to comment on it." (9)

Philo certainly took the Genesis passage as historical, explaining that just as the word "soul" applies both to good and evil beings, so does the word "angel." The bad angels, who followed Lucifer, at a later point in time failed to resist the lure of physical desire, and succumbed to it. He goes on to say that the story of the giants is not a myth, but it is there to teach us that some men are earth-born, while others are heaven- born, and the highest are God-born. (10)

The Early Church Fathers believed the same way. Men like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Tertullian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Ambrose...all adopted this interpretation. In the words of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, the angels fell "into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh...Of those lovers of virgins therefore, were begotten those who are called giants." (11) And again, "...the angels transgressed, and were captivated by love of women and begat children." (12)

Nowhere before the 5th century A.D. do we find any interpretation for "sons of God" other than that of angels. We cannot deny the Jewish Fathers knowledge of their own terminology! They invariably translated "sons of God" as "angels." The testimony of Josephus, that colorful cosmopolitan and historian, is also of paramount importance. In his monumental volume, "Antiquities of the Jews," he reveals his acquaintance with the tradition of the fallen angels consorting with women of Earth. He not only knew of the tradition but tells us how the children of such union possessed super human strength, and were known for their extreme wickedness. "For the tradition is that these men did what resembled the acts of those men the Grecians called giants." Josephus goes on to add that Noah remonstrated with these offspring of the angels for their villainy. (13)

Perhaps the most conclusive argument for interpreting the expression as "angels" is the simplest one of all. If the writer of Genesis wanted to refer to the "sons of Seth" he would have just said so. If God had intended that meaning, then the verse would undoubtedly read, "the sons of Seth saw the daughters of Cain that they were fair..." But the Bible meant something far more sinister--the sexual union between angels from Hell and evil women from Earth. Because of the gravity of such a union, and its dire consequences for the human race, God moved to destroy the race before it could destroy itself--except for one family which had not been contaminated."
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html

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Yes thank you John81,
I agree, GIANTS in ancient history - the Nephilim it's a great study and I am enjoying it tremendously!
I was sharing some of this with my teenagers and they were fascinated, all of them had heard about giants of old.
You have to look at all sides of the debate, and have an open mind sometimes to see what the Bible is trying to teach us.
I invite everyone to go back and look at my original links in post no.1, they are a very good read! :thumb

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I must say' date=' this is a very interesting thread. :thumb[/quote']

Yes, but it's getting confusinger and confusinger! :huh: Heartstrings - I believe Jerry 808.. is with you in your stance although you don't seem to realize it.

Anyways, this topic is not worth getting all riled up over. :godisgood:
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We're not riled up.

Heartstrings and I are far apart I believe, I stated that the sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 is fallen angels.

But it seems Heartstrings missed some of what was said in earlier post, or ignored it, I surely would not speculate which, so I was bowing out.

But it can be confusing, I studied this out back in about 1999, them sought a pastor friend whom I thought very much of. I actually feared telling him the understanding I came to, for I did not know where he stood in the issue.

He wold not tell me what his thoughts were on it until I told mine, I was amazed that he agreed fallen angels were being spoke of in Genesis 6.

Thank you Brother Parrish for the post. But some people will never accept the thought that fallen angels are being spoke of in Genesis 6, they just can't see no logic in that.

To me, this is just my own humble opinion, some seem to try and explain some things away to keep it from being fallen angels.
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Heartstrings... For cryin' out loud, man!
Calm down and listen up, you might learn something son!
I already told you, the SONS OF GOD are always angels in the OT.
Who do you think they were in Job 38:6-7, MORMONS? Mankind had not been created!
Well, that's what you are implying, that's what Mormons teach, you can read about that here:
http://epologetics.org/sonsofgod.php

Your dogmatic approach is only showing your lack of understanding, and you sound more and more like God's men you were mocking earlier. At some point I hope you will see that your view is not the only one around...

"The sons of God ('bene elohim' and variants) are divine members of God's heavenly host...The title 'sons/children of God' is familiar from Ugaritic mythology, in which the gods collectively are the 'children of El'...The sons/children of God are also found in Phoenician and Ammonite inscriptions, referring to the pantheon of sub-ordinate deities, indicating that the term was widespread in the West Semitic religions." - Oxford Companion to the Bible

"A meeting of the angels in heaven. They are the sons of God, ch. 38:7. They came to give an account of their negotiations on earth and to receive new instructions. Satan was one of them originally; but how hast thou fallen, O Lucifer!" - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible

"Sons of God - The angels called the sons of God, because they had their whole being from him, and because they were made partakers of his Divine and glorious image. Shouted - Rejoiced in and blessed God for his works, whereby he intimates, that they neither did advise or any way assist him, nor dislike or censure any of his works, as Job had presumed to do." John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

Who were the sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4?
http://www.gotquestions.org/sons-of-God.html

"?Sons of God? is clearly used of angels in Job 38:7. The Septuagint (LXX) here translates ?sons of God? as ?angels of God.? This need not mean that evil angels, or demons, actually cohabited with women. Nevertheless, evil angels on earth could have used the bodies of ungodly men, by demonic possession, to achieve their evil purpose of producing an evil generation of people" (Gen. 6:12)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/ar ... hilim9.asp

"The Jewish Fathers, when interpreting this expression from Genesis 6:2, invariably interpreted it as "angels." No less an authority than W.F. Allbright tells us that:

"The Israelites who heard this section (Genesis 6.2) recited unquestionably thought of intercourse between angels and women." (8)

Philo of Alexandria, a deeply religious man, wrote a brief but beautiful treatise on this subject, called "Concerning The Giants." Basing his exposition on the Greek version of the Bible, he renders it as "Angels of God." Says Bamberger, "Had he found the phrase 'sons of God' in his text, he most certainly would have been inspired to comment on it." (9)

Philo certainly took the Genesis passage as historical, explaining that just as the word "soul" applies both to good and evil beings, so does the word "angel." The bad angels, who followed Lucifer, at a later point in time failed to resist the lure of physical desire, and succumbed to it. He goes on to say that the story of the giants is not a myth, but it is there to teach us that some men are earth-born, while others are heaven- born, and the highest are God-born. (10)

The Early Church Fathers believed the same way. Men like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Tertullian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Ambrose...all adopted this interpretation. In the words of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, the angels fell "into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh...Of those lovers of virgins therefore, were begotten those who are called giants." (11) And again, "...the angels transgressed, and were captivated by love of women and begat children." (12)

Nowhere before the 5th century A.D. do we find any interpretation for "sons of God" other than that of angels. We cannot deny the Jewish Fathers knowledge of their own terminology! They invariably translated "sons of God" as "angels." The testimony of Josephus, that colorful cosmopolitan and historian, is also of paramount importance. In his monumental volume, "Antiquities of the Jews," he reveals his acquaintance with the tradition of the fallen angels consorting with women of Earth. He not only knew of the tradition but tells us how the children of such union possessed super human strength, and were known for their extreme wickedness. "For the tradition is that these men did what resembled the acts of those men the Grecians called giants." Josephus goes on to add that Noah remonstrated with these offspring of the angels for their villainy. (13)

Perhaps the most conclusive argument for interpreting the expression as "angels" is the simplest one of all. If the writer of Genesis wanted to refer to the "sons of Seth" he would have just said so. If God had intended that meaning, then the verse would undoubtedly read, "the sons of Seth saw the daughters of Cain that they were fair..." But the Bible meant something far more sinister--the sexual union between angels from Hell and evil women from Earth. Because of the gravity of such a union, and its dire consequences for the human race, God moved to destroy the race before it could destroy itself--except for one family which had not been contaminated."
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html


Brother Parrish,
The Bible uses precise wording. It leaves no words out and adds no unnecessary ones.
In these two verses, I want you to focus on one word:
Gen 6:1
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I'm going to try just one more time, trying to point you to Holy Scriptures where the answers lie to your questions which have already been answered.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Where and when did this take place at? "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" When God laid the foundation of the world.

Who was with God at that time? "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" The morning star and the sons of God. Check out and find who the morning star & the sons of God and you will have your answer. By the way, at that time God had not created Adam, so it could not have been men, humans, present with Him. Hint, sons of God are angels.

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Brother Parrish, regardless of your position, quoting references to a corrupted Bible manuscript (Septuagint) and an apostate Jew's (Philo) interpretation certainly does not help your argument.

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Perhaps the most conclusive argument for interpreting the expression as "angels" is the simplest one of all. If the writer of Genesis wanted to refer to the "sons of Seth" he would have just said so. If God had intended that meaning, then the verse would undoubtedly read, "the sons of Seth saw the daughters of Cain that they were fair..."


Sons of Seth states they were from that line - sons of God indicated they were believers who compromised. Someone can be from a certain line and still be an unbeliever.
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Every one of the named sons of Seth lived so many hundred years and "begat sons and daughters" so yes, some of these many un-named "sons and daughters" were, no doubt, unbelievers.
When I referred to "Sons of Seth" I meant the ones whose names appear both in Genesis 5 and in the direct line of Christ .
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