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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

GIANTS in ancient history - the Nephilim


Brother Parrish
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Thanks for your comments Bro. Jerry80871852, and thanks to everyone else!

Yes, I am not really here to argue, and I am not being dogmatic about any of this... just saying I have spent some time studying this and simply sharing my findings, as I said before, others may be right and I could be wrong, CAN I MAKE THAT ANY MORE PLAIN? But at the same time my friends---I think it is possible there may be more to these giants the Nephilim, entire books have been written on the subject, and I do find it very interesting! :thumb

Isn't it great that after being saved for 27 years and teaching adult Sunday School for over 10 years that one can still find the Bible so interesting? I love the Bible, and I do find it very interesting that the Hebrew word for Nephilim is "FALLEN ONES," and they were known as the Rephaim (Hebrew for 'PHANTOMS').

I also want to mention that I am well aware of the passage in Matthew 22, particularly the last two words in that passage, "IN HEAVEN". If we look at this without changing the KJV text, it is at least possible that the angels who left their first estate (Jude) GAVE UP HEAVEN in order to have relations with human women, and corrupt the DNA of man. They could not take wives in HEAVEN, but they looked upon the daughters of MEN and made a decision. Were the Nephilim stupid? Or were they attempting to corrupt all flesh with violence and destroy God's creation? I sure don't know.

"In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her." But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels IN HEAVEN." Matthew 22:23-30

It is interesting that in Genesis 3, God talks about putting enmity between "thy seed and her seed," and in the context, this appears to be referring to the SEED of the fallen angel, Lucifer!

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy SEED and her SEED; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen 3:14-15

Here a few more opinions on the Nephilim...

http://www.bibledefenders.com/id17.html
http://bibleprobe.com/nephilim.htm
http://raptureready.com/faq/faq333.html


The old devil tried every way he could to mess up the seed so that Jesus would not be born a deity, sons of God marrying daughters of men was one of them, and if he had got his seed injected into the line that Jesus came from he would have succeeded. But as you know God intervened, the flood came about for that purpose, that is to keep it from happening, but as you may know many reject that completely just out of personal opinion and human logic.

I have no problem discussing it, I just know how many are on here who get that smarty attitude and get rather personal in their remarks
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6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD' date=' and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6 (KJV)[/quote']

I agree that these are referring to angels - but it does not specifically say the sons of God here were fallen angels. They could just as easily be referring to the angels of God giving their reports and Satan showing up among them to cause discord and accuse the brethren.
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Dr. Carl Baugh came to my college once (Norris Bible Baptist, in Fort Worth) and said they found the skeleton of a woman outside of Weatherford, TX that had the equivalent of a size 16 shoe. He even said what they would have called her...Ma'am. :lol:

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I agree, sons of God are fallen angels. We have had that discussion on here some 6 months or so back. Some were not to kind about my stand and got quite smarty in their remarks and I see thats coming again from those who believe they are not angels.

I know many good men who don't believe they're not angels who don't get the lest bit smarty on this subject when discussing it with someone who believes they were angels.

The thing is many people use human logic and say its not possible instead of taking things in the Bible in proper context on this subject.

But this is a subject that I can agree to disagree on. But thinking people will think the Bible is science fiction is not a logical reason for not teaching sons of God are not angels. Seems to me we can gather from God's Word that the big majority of people are not going to believe the Holy Bible is God's true word to mankind.

And I believe that is where many of the lost people who write science fiction stories got many of their ideas.


People who are trying to rightly divide the Word, also don't appreciate being referred to as using "human logic" and "humanistic thinking" and a few other condescending things like I have experienced when debating this subject. It gets frustrating but I do appologize for any wrong attitude. What looks like "human logic" to me is when we make the Bible say things the Bible just don't say:

Please, show me a verse the Bible, which uses the word ANGEL, and says angels procreated with women.
Please show me a place which says ANGELS intended to corrupt the "seed".
Please show me one that defines "morning stars" as angels.
Show me a verse that says ANGELS came before a THRONE of God, in HEAVEN.
Show a verse that states that angels "went after strange flesh"
Show me a verse which defines "sons of God" as angels.
I promise you I will believe any or all of these, if you can PROVE it by showing me where the Bible says it.
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Show me a verse that says ANGELS came before a THRONE of God, in HEAVEN.


Job does not specify that it was before His throne - but in His presence.

Satan appears before the Lord, if not other fallen angels:

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Holy angels also appear before the Lord in Heaven in some sense:

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
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"come before his presence with singing..." That is done one earth, Jerry.
The book of Job says "before the Lord"...that is on earth too..... Abraham was "before the Lord", Moses was too.

What is the Chronological Order"?
When was Satan cast down? Jesus said he beheld(past tense) Satan as lightning, fall from Heaven. Satan had already rebelled against God, and was in the Garden of Eden, had already "left his own habitation" by that time.
So where is Satan now? Is he going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it"?

Yes, it says ANGELS, not "sons of God".
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"come before his presence with singing..." That is done one earth, Jerry.
The book of Job says "before the Lord"...that is on earth too..... Abraham was "before the Lord", Moses was too.


I am sure if the angels appeared before the Lord in Heaven, then it would also be in His presence - so I don't see the point you are making. That in itself does not prove it must be on earth - in fact, there are verses in the Bible indicating we will dwell in His presence after we die/in Heaven as well.

When was Satan cast down? Jesus said he beheld(past tense) Satan as lightning, fall from Heaven. Satan had already rebelled against God, and was in the Garden of Eden, had already "left his own habitation" by that time.


Right - Satan fell sometime after day six (actually after day seven - see Genesis 1:31) and before he led Adam and Eve astray:

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

In regards to Vince's post and Qwerty's, there was no way Satan sinned and fell before the earth was created and before the end of Creation week - as it quite clearly states he walked in Eden before he fell.

Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
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6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 (KJV)

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:1 (KJV)

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Gen 6:4 (KJV)


Fallen angels, sons of God came along with Satan standing before God, in both Job 1:6 & Job 2:1.

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:2 (KJV)

Fallen angels, sons of God marry daughters of men and their off spring are might men.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:5-7 (KJV)

And because of that wickedness God destroyed the world and everything on it with a flood wiping out the evil Satan and his fallen angels had done and only 8 people survived, that being Noah and his family.

What is and what has always been the goal of old Satan? Does old Satan have any morals at all or will he use any sin possible to reach his goal?

Of course we know Satan will never reach his goal, but we know to that he is still hard at work, none of have to look very far to see some of his handy work.

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I am sure if the angels appeared before the Lord in Heaven, then it would also be in His presence - so I don't see the point you are making. That in itself does not prove it must be on earth - in fact, there are verses in the Bible indicating we will dwell in His presence after we die/in Heaven as well.



Right - Satan fell sometime after day six (actually after day seven - see Genesis 1:31) and before he led Adam and Eve astray:

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

In regards to Vince's post and Qwerty's, there was no way Satan sinned and fell before the earth was created and before the end of Creation week - as it quite clearly states he walked in Eden before he fell.

Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


The part I put in bold, I believe there are some who try to teach that Satan fell before this time to try and prove the world was in existence and the fallen angels were living on it, dinosaurs & such and God destroyed it to make this world.

I probably did not say that very well for I am not put on that false teaching, I believe we've mentioned that before.
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6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 (KJV)
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:1 (KJV)

Fallen angels, sons of God came along with Satan standing before God, in both Job 1:6 & Job 2:1.


No offense - but those passages do not specifically state that these were fallen angels, so that is opinion. I believe they are holy angels - but I see that it does not specify that either. There is a passage that states fallen angels do give accounts to God:

2 Chronicles 18:18-22 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
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6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 (KJV)

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:1 (KJV)

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Gen 6:4 (KJV)


Fallen angels, sons of God came along with Satan standing before God, in both Job 1:6 & Job 2:1.

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:2 (KJV)

Fallen angels, sons of God marry daughters of men and their off spring are might men.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:5-7 (KJV)

And because of that wickedness God destroyed the world and everything on it with a flood wiping out the evil Satan and his fallen angels had done and only 8 people survived, that being Noah and his family.

What is and what has always been the goal of old Satan? Does old Satan have any morals at all or will he use any sin possible to reach his goal?

Of course we know Satan will never reach his goal, but we know to that he is still hard at work, none of have to look very far to see some of his handy work.


Again, I ask you to answer my questions.

Please, show me a verse the Bible, which uses the word ANGEL, and says angels procreated with women.
Please show me a place which says ANGELS intended to corrupt the "seed".
Please show me one that defines "morning stars" as angels.
Show me a verse that says ANGELS came before a THRONE of God, in HEAVEN.
Show a verse that states that angels "went after strange flesh"
Show me a verse which defines "sons of God" as angels.
I promise you I will believe any or all of these, if you can PROVE it by showing me where the Bible says it.
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I did, but you refuse the answer. When someone refuses the answer because they do not like it what else can one do?

Jerry neither does it specifically state that these were not fallen angels.

And who runs around with Satan? Would it be fallen angels who are his helpers.

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2 Chronicles 18:18-22 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.


Was this for sure an "angel"?
It only says "lying spirit".
It does seem to indicate it was one of the "host of heaven", was it a FALLEN angel?
Did this actually take place? Or was it a vision?
Or was the whole thing a LIE??

The fact is, Micaiah LIED:

13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.
14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.
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I did, but you refuse the answer. When someone refuses the answer because they do not like it what else can one do?

Jerry neither does it specifically state that these were not fallen angels.

And who runs around with Satan? Would it be fallen angels who are his helpers.


Jerry ,
I will answer your when you answer mine.
Here are my questiosn again.

Please, show me a verse the Bible, which uses the word ANGEL, and says angels procreated with women. Did you show me this verse?
Please show me a place which says ANGELS intended to corrupt the "seed". DId you provide this verse?
Please show me one that defines "morning stars" as angels. Where's my definition?
Show me a verse that says ANGELS came before a THRONE of God, in HEAVEN. The incident in Job 1 and 2 does not use the words Angel, throne or heaven.
Show a verse that states that angels "went after strange flesh" Did you show this?
Show me a verse which defines "sons of God" as angels. I still haven't seen the definition in the Bible?
I promise you I will believe any or all of these, if you can PROVE it by showing me where the Bible says it.
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Jerry neither does it specifically state that these were not fallen angels.


I know - that is what I acknowledged in my post above. It is an assumption either way.

And who runs around with Satan? Would it be fallen angels who are his helpers.


It does not say they came with Satan - but that Satan showed up among them. The impression I get is that he was not part of the meeting, but came of his own accord.
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Was this for sure an "angel"?
It only says "lying spirit".


What else would it have been?

It does seem to indicate it was one of the "host of heaven", was it a FALLEN angel?


The holy angels don't lie.

Did this actually take place? Or was it a vision?


There is nothing in the context to indicate it was a vision of any kind.

Or was the whole thing a LIE??

The fact is, Micaiah LIED:

13And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak.
14And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand.


Micah facetiously gave them what they wanted to hear - because they would not accept the truth. The passage I quoted refers to a lying spirit speaking through the false prophets. It was not referring to what Micaiah said - I believe he was just being sarcastic. He had already told them the truth and the king of Israel just didn't like the answers - so he said what Ahab wanted to hear.
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In the context of his statements, it is quite obvious what his position and statements were about. The king even knew he was not being serious - and was mocking the false prophets and their false predictions.

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1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:1-6 (KJV)

Verse 4 is quite clear, the sons of God had children by the daughters of men.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 (KJV)

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:1 (KJV)

sons of God is fallen angels.

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sons of God is fallen angels.


The sons of God in Job are angels - but that does not prove they were fallen angels, nor that the term is used the same way in Genesis (as stated elsewhere in this thread, the Bible uses the term four different ways).
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
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