My definition of Calvinism

[John the Baptist]

Here is the Southern Baptist "Faith and Message" 2000 statement on election and the perseverence of the faith:

V. God's Purpose of Grace

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

[heartstrings]

Here is the Southern Baptist "Faith and Message" 2000 statement on election and the perseverence of the faith:

Sir,
God does not regenerate or justify a sinner according to Election.
Actually, election has nothing to do with regeneration, justification, sanctification, or glorification.
Election basicly is "chosen for service".

Jesus was "elect".
1 Peter 2:6
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Isa 42:1

[Danny Carlton]

Sir,
God does not regenerate or justify a sinner according to Election.
Actually, election has nothing to do with regeneration, justification, sanctification, or glorification.
Election basicly is "chosen for service".

Jesus was "elect".
1 Peter 2:6
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Isa 42:1

[Philip]

I've subscribed to the Sword of the Lord for several years, I confess I like Curtis Hutson much better than Shelton Smith even though we carry the same last name.

I have read a few things that both Curtis Huston and John Rice have written on the Calvinist doctrine, seems they don't think to highly of it.

I'm looking at a small booklet by Curtis Hutson copyrighted in 1980 that is entitled, "Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinist." I agree with him on this issue 100%. I disagree on all points of Calvinist Teachings. But I have posted my disagreement in other post already and plainly stated it is false teachings and it is not of the Bible nor of God.

I rightly don't know who your agreeing with or disagreeing with, but it seems your taking up for Calvin and his Calvinist doctrine which he is the inventor of, the reason he is the inventor of it is because it is not found in the Bible.

Oh, are you saying that Shelton Smith is a believer and teacher of Calvinist? That the Sword of the Lord upholds Calvinist?

I too like Curtis Hutson, and heard him speak several times while I was at TTU in the 70's. Also, I think I can categorically state that Shelton Smith is NOT, in any way, a Calvinist. Unless he has changed his views recently, I feel pretty good saying that. As for my own leanings, I go the way of Historical Calvinism. I disagree with many who call themselves Calvinists as they distort the Scripture, like many others, to fit their own view of the world and how they want to fit into it. On the other hand, I don't really like labels as they tend to put people into a corner that is not necessarily correct or true. I take the Scripture as it is when I teach my Bible classes, and let the Holy Spirit lead me where He does. If that makes me sound wishy-washy on this issue, then so be it. I'll not apologize for it. New Christians in my class don't need to be drowned in dogma before they have a firm, Biblical footing to rest on. Have said all that, which is more than I intended, I will say one the paradoxes of my life is that one of my most treasured possessions is my Old Scofield Bible. I just got a new one to replace the now tattered one I bought at TTU over 30 yrs. ago. Go figure, huh?

[heartstrings]

when it's used in reference to Jesus it denoting His being set aside or chosen for another purpose.

Election basicly is "chosen for service".

I firmly believe that black is black and white is white and there is a correct interpretation of the Bible.
One of us has the wrong one. I believe this particular topic is important because it is about the very nature of God. I believe we are discussing two different God's. The God I met says "come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden" and he says he will draw all men to himself and He said He "..so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" and He said He was not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentence". And in Acts 17:30 he "commandeth all men every where to repent:"
MY God's will is that ALL should come to repentance.
MY God's will is that NONE should perish.
I just don't see how it could be any plainer.
That's the God I came to know.

Which God do you know?
Your god CHOSE who would be saved and damned everyone else to Hell before they were ever born, simply because He is "sovereign". He is a puppeteer and we are his puppets. I DO NOT KNOW YOUR GOD. A LOT of people are going to hear the real God say :"depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you" because they believed and taught about somebody else. .....another Jesus. They may have used Jesus' name, but they had His character and personality all wrong.

[Danny Carlton]

I firmly believe that black is black and white is white and there is a correct interpretation of the Bible.
One of us has the wrong one. I believe this particular topic is important because it is about the very nature of God. I believe we are discussing two different God's. The God I met says "come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden" and he says he will draw all men to himself and He said He "..so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" and He said He was not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentence". And in Acts 17:30 he "commandeth all men every where to repent:"
MY God's will is that ALL should come to repentance.
MY God's will is that NONE should perish.
I just don't see how it could be any plainer.
That's the God I came to know.

Which God do you know?
Your god CHOSE who would be saved and damned everyone else to Hell before they were ever born, simply because He is "sovereign". He is a puppeteer and we are his puppets. I DO NOT KNOW YOUR GOD. A LOT of people are going to hear the real God say :"depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you" because they believed and taught about somebody else. .....another Jesus. They may have used Jesus' name, but they had His character and personality all wrong.

You're being extremely closed minded. You are in essence saying unless someone agrees with you in every minute, tiny detail, they aren't a Christian. You are also demanding that your interpritation of a single word (which can mean numerous things) must be accepted as the only interpritation of that word, or those who disagree with you are "fake Christians", worshipping a "false god". Be very careful. such rigidity will ultimately lead to sin, as you can see from people like Fred Phelps.

[heartstrings]

Not everyone agrees in every detail...probably on anything. That is evident in most every "bibilical issues" thread on this board.
But this one concerns God's very nature.

Jesus is the only way
Some folks believe in a Jesus who bled and died alright, but they keep their salvation by their own works. They are not trusting in Jesus for their salvation.
Others have a Jesus who bled and died, but they must also be baptized in order to be saved. They are not trusting Jesus alone for their salvation.
Others have a prosperity Jesus they USE for personal gain.
Sir, you seem to have a "Jesus" whose love is limited, exclusive. Your Jesus doesn't love the world. He only loves a select few.
Your Jesus created millions of people for one purpose; to send them to Hell for His glory. Sir. that is not glory at all. God is not like that at all. That's a misrepresentation...that's another god because Jesus just is not like that at all. Jesus wants everyone to be saved.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Danny Carlton]

Not everyone agrees in every detail...probably on anything. That is evident in most every "bibilical issues" thread on this board.
But this one concerns God's very nature.

Jesus is the only way
Some folks believe in a Jesus who bled and died alright, but they keep their salvation by their own works. They are not trusting in Jesus for their salvation.
Others have a Jesus who bled and died, but they must also be baptized in order to be saved. They are not trusting Jesus alone for their salvation.
Others have a prosperity Jesus they USE for personal gain.
Sir, you seem to have a "Jesus" whose love is limited, exclusive. Your Jesus doesn't love the world. He only loves a select few.
Your Jesus created millions of people for one purpose; to send them to Hell for His glory. Sir. that is not glory at all. God is not like that at all. That's a misrepresentation...that's another god because Jesus just is not like that at all. Jesus wants everyone to be saved.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As long as you're putting words in my mouth, what else would you like to claim I said that I've never said?

[JerryNumbers]

That is what true Calvinism teaches. Only the chosen will be save, and they will be offered so much grace they cannot refuse and everyone else does not have a choice, they were preordained to hell.

And heartstrings is right, there are many that disagree, take in account Matthew 7:13,14. Few will enter the straight gate, many will enter the wide gate. Those who enter the wide gate do so because they made the wrong choice, many of them failing to heed those who tries to show them the proper path to eternal life, but they just kept disagreeing with those who knew the truth.

And just think how many disagreed with Noah, only 7 souls agreed with him, he and those 7 got on the boat, everyone else suffered the judgment. With the doctrine of Calvinism and the doctrine heartstrings and I express, both of them cannot be right, one has to be wrong, for they completely disagree with one another.

[qwerty guy]

So what if God chooses someone, 2000 years from now, that lived, 3000 years ago?

[Jerry]

Then they would probably have been pretty confused on where they stood with Him...

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[qwerty guy]

that really didn't answer a single thing.

Thank you so much for tying

[Danny Carlton]

That is what true Calvinism teaches. Only the chosen will be save, and they will be offered so much grace they cannot refuse and everyone else does not have a choice, they were preordained to hell.

And heartstrings is right, there are many that disagree, take in account Matthew 7:13,14. Few will enter the straight gate, many will enter the wide gate. Those who enter the wide gate do so because they made the wrong choice, many of them failing to heed those who tries to show them the proper path to eternal life, but they just kept disagreeing with those who knew the truth.

And just think how many disagreed with Noah, only 7 souls agreed with him, he and those 7 got on the boat, everyone else suffered the judgment. With the doctrine of Calvinism and the doctrine heartstrings and I express, both of them cannot be right, one has to be wrong, for they completely disagree with one another.

No, that's what "straw man" Calvinism teaches--the Calvinism you've chosen to define all Calvinists by so you can then claim they're wrong. Read the initial post of this thread to find what I and most Calvinists actually believe.

[Danny Carlton]

So what if God chooses someone' date=' 2000 years from now, that lived, 3000 years ago?[/quote']
God did His choosing before the foundation of the world. [bible]Matthew 25:34[/bible], [bible]Ephesians 1:4[/bible], [bible]Revelation 17:8[/bible]

[Jerry]

Right - and there is nowhere that states people were chosen to be saved or not saved, to go to Heaven or to Hell.