Members heartstrings Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 Sir, that verse does not say WHO ordained does it? You know it doesn't. Now I want you to carefully read the following: 1Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted(tasso) themselves to the ministry of the saints,) WHO appointed these people? ? Nobody, they "tasso'd" themselves They were determined, resolved, set, addicted "tasso" to the ministry of the saints. The people who got saved wanted eternal life real bad..they were "tasso". I don't know any Greek, But I know the God who gave us the King James Bible and He tells us that "whosoever will" may come. He gave His only Son for the whole world, friend.The word may be the same but the context isn't. There's a big difference between saying "those that were [appointed/set/chosen]" and "they [appointed/set/chose] themselves". What I don't understand is that even under the concept of God choosing those he foreknew would (of their own free will) choose Him, the passage (Acts 13:48) can easily be read as "appointed [by God]", so why all the semantical gymnastics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Disciple Maker Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 You might want to take a look at John Piper's statement from the web site of Bethlehem Baptist Church beginning on page 16. "PERSERVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (notice PERSEVERANCE is spell incorrectly) It follows from what was just said that the people of God WILL persevere to the end and not be lost. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified. No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure. But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end. (bolding added) The statement goes on in some depth. http://c4.atomicplaypen.com/sites/BBC/resources/images/1250.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 "PERSERVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (notice PERSEVERANCE is spell incorrectly) Wouldn't that be "spelled incorrectly"?It follows from what was just said that the people of God WILL persevere to the end and not be lost. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified. No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure. But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end. (bolding added) The statement goes on in some depth. http://c4.atomicplaypen.com/sites/BBC/resources/images/1250.pdf The problem with your analysis is the same proble, confusing cause and effect. Is obedience a cause or an effect of salvation? In either case, is it optional? Obviously it is not optional, but we are then left with the quandry of how to emphasize the importance of obedience without implying it is a causal factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Disciple Maker Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 Wouldn't that be "spelled incorrectly"? The problem with your analysis is the same proble, confusing cause and effect. Is obedience a cause or an effect of salvation? In either case, is it optional? Obviously it is not optional, but we are then left with the quandry of how to emphasize the importance of obedience without implying it is a causal factor.It is not my analysis. It was simply a direct quote from their web site. Obedience is nether a cause or effect of salvation. Obedience is a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 The word may be the same but the context isn't. There's a big difference between saying "those that were [appointed/set/chosen]" and "they [appointed/set/chose] themselves". What I don't understand is that even under the concept of God choosing those he foreknew would (of their own free will) choose Him, the passage (Acts 13:48) can easily be read as "appointed [by God]", so why all the semantical gymnastics? It don't say appointed "by God", brotherman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. First Timothy 4:10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 It is not my analysis. It was simply a direct quote from their web site. Obedience is nether a cause or effect of salvation. Obedience is a decision. No, I'm talking about your analysis that Piper was saying one must work to keep their salvation. Obedience may be a choice, but it is an effect of salvation which is the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 It don't say appointed "by God", brotherman.It says tasso which is not an English word, so I used several English equivalents of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach' date=' because we trust in the living God, [b']who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. First Timothy 4:10You need to elaborate. It sounds as if you are saing all will be saved, regardless what they do or believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 You need to elaborate. It sounds as if you are saing all will be saved, regardless what they do or believe. What does specially mean here? And I'm not saying anything in that quote, that's God speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted February 28, 2008 Members Share Posted February 28, 2008 But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end. Funny how people will defend Calvinism and even Piper - yet that statement looks like false doctrine to me - the exact same doctrine I have refuted and called into question in another thread on what some Calvinists believe. There you have it: a Calvinist quite clearly teaching that Perseverance means someone must persevere to the end to be or stay saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 29, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 29, 2008 What does specially mean here? And I'm not saying anything in that quote, that's God speaking. Strong's...mavlista malista, mal'-is-tah; neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:--chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially. But the word "Saviour" is...swthvr soter, so-tare'; from 4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:--saviour. ...4982 is...sw/vzw sozo, sode'-zo; from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. That would then go back to Luke 2:10 and 11... And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Jesus offered salvation to all, but all did not accept. I would imagine that 1 Tim 4:10 would be seen like this... a postman is still a postman even if you refuse the mail he brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny Carlton Posted February 29, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 29, 2008 Funny how people will defend Calvinism and even Piper - yet that statement looks like false doctrine to me - the exact same doctrine I have refuted and called into question in another thread on what some Calvinists believe. There you have it: a Calvinist quite clearly teaching that Perseverance means someone must persevere to the end to be or stay saved. "...Looks like false doctrine..." there's the catch. You have to go beyond what it "looks" like and study what is true. It is true that obedience and salvation are inextricably linked. But when we say we can't lose our salvation, it's tempting for some (remember, Paul addressed this in Romans) to then think they have no obligation to obedience--that being saved is enough. Piper is emphasizing the importance of obediecne in that equation, but not necesarily as a cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John the Baptist Posted February 29, 2008 Members Share Posted February 29, 2008 It follows from what was just said that the people of God WILL persevere to the end and not be lost. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified. No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure. But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end. (bolding added) This is surely not the norm for Calvinism. Most Calvinist believe that if one is saved they will through the power of God persevere to the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.