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I would liketa respond to the following post:





Wilchbla wrote:

steel, why do you insist that you are a fundamentalist all the time when you reject two major tenets of fundamentalism.

1) Preservation of scripture without error.

2) Eternal security

Plus you reject dispensationalism which may not be one of the tenets but is important in understanding the word of God and you postition concerning the nation of Israel is iffy.

Wilchbla


First, I have never said Scripture is not preserved w/o error. If you believe I have, please cut/paste any post from the several million I have made over the years on thousands of sites. But if ya want, we can discuss that in the IFB forum is I can get clearance to post there, so let's discuss the following here:

Second, does your Bible have Hebrews 6:4-6 in it? Those verses describe a Christian & plainly say one can fall away. Let's look at'em in the KJV:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Please note the bolded portions. No unsaved person is made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. And one is renewed unto repentance only by being saved.

Now, I agree 110 % that NO external power nor being can remove a Christian from Jesus' hand. But one can let go on his own! Thus saith the LORD thru Paul, or whoever wrote Hebrews. Like it or not, Sportzz Fanzz, this is GOD'S saying & not something some man made up. And I'm fully aware of all the verses the OSAS people cite, but they all say in so many words that GOD won't leggo on His own, nor reject anyone. Not one of them counters Heb. 6;4-6.

We are sinking in a sea of sin. God has provided a Lifeguard in the person of His own Son, Jesus Christ. If we come to Him for rescue, He will keep us from sinking, without fail, until the time comes for us to be pulled outta that "sea" onto God's "land", either by our death or by the rapture. But we can leggo of Him, and if any of us do, He will not come after us.

Some use the excuse of "that person was never REALLY saved". However, in light of the words of Hebrews 6:4-6 that's just not so.

Again, it's not *MY* argument; it's understanding those SCRIPTURES as written.

We can discuss dispensationalism & my Scriptural view of Israel in another thread if ya wish. We oughtta keep this'n on Hebrews 6:4-6, if it's OK with y'all.
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We are sinking in a sea of sin. God has provided a Lifeguard in the person of His own Son, Jesus Christ. If we come to Him for rescue, He will keep us from sinking, without fail, until the time comes for us to be pulled outta that "sea" onto God's "land", either by our death or by the rapture. But we can leggo of Him, and if any of us do, He will not come after us.


So let me make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying unless a believer persists in hanging on to God they loose their salvation right? That is a works based salvation and wrong even by your own analogy. Is a lifeguard going to let those he is responsible for drown if they have swallowed to much water and don't hang on to him? If so he is a poor lifeguard. This reminds me of a song. It is called "I'm not holding on to Jesus". Good song. The saved believer can't lose his salvation because it isn't his to lose. It has nothing to do with the believers works and everything to do with Christs work.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


Jesus made a promise and Gods word is true. In short, what part of "everlasting life" don't you understand? :smile If you will pardon me for stating the obvious, life that can be lost is not everlasting life.

If you misread these passages and say they mean we must continue in belief to "obtain" everlasting life as some say you still must face this biblical truth.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Then there is the whole "Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness" study. That was a one time act of faith by which he was permanently justified.
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BUT............................................

What happens if one ceases to believe God? Abraham apparently believed Him his whole life. Solomon abandoned God for idols, as did the later king Asa.

Again, an unsaved person is NOT made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, nor 'renewed unto repentance'.

And BELIEF isn't a "work". It's a state of mind.

While God said thru James that faith without worx is dead, He was speaking of those able to perform good worx. The repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus could do no work at all, nor be baptized,but Jesus saved him because of his FAITH & BELIEF.

I'm not speaking of one who becomes complacent about God, ceasing to attend church, etc. I'm speaking of one who ABANDONS HIS BELIEF IN GOD, turning his back on Christ completely. 'Tis easy to say such a person never had any true faith to begin with, but that's just an excuse.

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BUT............................................

What happens if one ceases to believe God? Abraham apparently believed Him his whole life. Solomon abandoned God for idols, as did the later king Asa.

Again, an unsaved person is NOT made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, nor 'renewed unto repentance'.

And BELIEF isn't a "work". It's a state of mind.

While God said thru James that faith without worx is dead, He was speaking of those able to perform good worx. The repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus could do no work at all, nor be baptized,but Jesus saved him because of his FAITH & BELIEF.

I'm not speaking of one who becomes complacent about God, ceasing to attend church, etc. I'm speaking of one who ABANDONS HIS BELIEF IN GOD, turning his back on Christ completely. 'Tis easy to say such a person never had any true faith to begin with, but that's just an excuse.


You are not answering a single scripture in my post. Why? because they can have no reasonable answer from your point of view. As far as salvation is concerned a Christian can't lose it because it isn't his to lose. The believer belongs to God. If I may borrow loosely from the teachings found in 1 Corinthians 6, know ye not that ye are not your own? The believer is bought with a price, his body and Spirit are Gods. Mark 3:27 teaches you can't spoil a strong man possessions unless you first bind the strong man, so unless you are able to overpower the might of God you have no more power to jump out of the fathers hand than Satan has power to pluck you out. The Father is greater than all, and the blood of Christ when applied once covers all sins eternally. Everlasting life. Christ is enough.

You have the truth, but you are rejecting it. If you are trusting in your ability to hang on to Christ for your salvation take heed. You can't add one ounce of works to salvation or else the whole is the filthy rags of self righteousness. This is truly one of the most basic fundamentals of the faith.
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You are going under the assumption that Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to eternal life. However, there is no indication of that. Your view of this passage especially loses ground when taking into consideration that Hebrews does not even talk about eternal life, not just in chapter 6, but through the whole book!

Secondly, the pronouns are plural(i.e. they, them, their, etc.). That is significant since the book of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews in Christ's New Testament church who are considering going back to the old covenant worship instead. If they had fallen away and returned to the old, how could they continue to take part in the new covenant that Christ started? If that church that consisted of Hebrews went back to the synagogue, to the old, how could they receive the blessings of the new and reform as a church after disbanding to return to the old?

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The Bible says "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to keep that which I have COMMITED unto HIM against that day." I don't think you can get any more plain than that. If I had a religion that couldn't assure me salvation then I'd trade it for a goat and shoot the goat. If we can't trust Jesus when he said "these things have I written unto you that ye might KNOW that ye have (not will have and not might have) eternal life" then we can't trust him when he said in my Father's house are many mansions. When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" He meant it and there is nothing we can do to deviate from HIS finished work. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that God isn't wise enough to keep you. No man can pluck you from the Father's and since He holds the universe in the palm of His hand have fun trying to jump out.
John 10:27-30; Romans 7:25; 2 Timothy 1:12; Psalm 130:3

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This isn't MY idea; it's in the SCRIPTURES. It's not as if I'm making stuff up.

Is any UNSAVED person made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit"?

Is an unsaved person "renewed unto repentance"?

Now, Paul, or whoever wrote hebrews wasn't writing his own thoughts-he was writing what he'd LEARNED FROM GOD. And, while we all agree that nothing nor no one can pull us from Christ, it's apparent from those verses that one can turn his back on Christ after being saved.

If not, then just WHY do they say it's impossible to AGAIN renew such a one to repentance??????

Friends, I am simply reminding you of what the SCRIPTURES say. I am NOT inventing doctrine nor presenting the words of man.

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Hmm. Interesting. A discourse on once saved, always saved. Let me make a few comments, sir:
(John 10:28-29) - "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

First, sir, God's Word says those saved by His grace shall never perish. Second, it says we are in Christ's hand, and also in God's hand. If you think you can squirm your way out of God's hand, well then, sir, that's quite an impressive feat. However, it's also an impossible one.

Furthermore, sir, the Bible says...(1 John 2:18-19) - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. {19} They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Take especial notice of the second verse. Notice it says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for they had been of us, they would have no doubt continued with us."

Also, sir, let me tell you this: No Christian who is living, ever has lived, or ever will live deserved God's grace and mercy. You did not deserve salvation, nor did I. It was by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Why should it be free, but we then have to work to keep it? After all, we constantly fail God.

In conclusion, sir, let me say this: If we could lose God's gift of salvation, which we did not deserve in the first place, Heaven would be completely empty. Because, from Paul to the most backslidden Christian, we're all sinners, and we all fail God.

No one deserves it, and no one deserves to keep it. But, by the grace of God, we are sealed until the Day of Judgment. I'm glad my God is powerful enough to keep me saved. And, if you're a Christian, yours is too, whether you want to admit it or not.

Sir, there's just simply no way of getting around it. Eternal life you can lose is not eternal life.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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This isn't MY idea; it's in the SCRIPTURES. It's not as if I'm making stuff up.

Is any UNSAVED person made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit"?

Is an unsaved person "renewed unto repentance"?

Now, Paul, or whoever wrote hebrews wasn't writing his own thoughts-he was writing what he'd LEARNED FROM GOD. And, while we all agree that nothing nor no one can pull us from Christ, it's apparent from those verses that one can turn his back on Christ after being saved.

If not, then just WHY do they say it's impossible to AGAIN renew such a one to repentance??????

Friends, I am simply reminding you of what the SCRIPTURES say. I am NOT inventing doctrine nor presenting the words of man.


Robycop its not that we are not looking at the Scripture that you gave. In fact, I believe that it was explained very well.

You are going under the assumption that Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to eternal life. However, there is no indication of that. Your view of this passage especially loses ground when taking into consideration that Hebrews does not even talk about eternal life, not just in chapter 6, but through the whole book!

Secondly, the pronouns are plural(i.e. they, them, their, etc.). That is significant since the book of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews in Christ's New Testament church who are considering going back to the old covenant worship instead. If they had fallen away and returned to the old, how could they continue to take part in the new covenant that Christ started? If that church that consisted of Hebrews went back to the synagogue, to the old, how could they receive the blessings of the new and reform as a church after disbanding to return to the old?



I would incourage you to look also at the first few verses of that chapter and compair it with the verses that I gave you.

The Bible says "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to keep that which I have COMMITED unto HIM against that day." I don't think you can get any more plain than that. If I had a religion that couldn't assure me salvation then I'd trade it for a goat and shoot the goat. If we can't trust Jesus when he said "these things have I written unto you that ye might KNOW that ye have (not will have and not might have) eternal life" then we can't trust him when he said in my Father's house are many mansions. When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" He meant it and there is nothing we can do to deviate from HIS finished work. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that God isn't wise enough to keep you. No man can pluck you from the Father's and since He holds the universe in the palm of His hand have fun trying to jump out.
John 10:27-30; Romans 7:25; 2 Timothy 1:12; Psalm 130:3


And this sir is the last time I will post and I encourage others to post only twice. The Bible says that we are to give an heritic only two admonishions and if you reject this admonision then I will have to reject you according to Scripture.
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BUT............................................

What happens if one ceases to believe God? Abraham apparently believed Him his whole life. Solomon abandoned God for idols, as did the later king Asa.

Again, an unsaved person is NOT made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, nor 'renewed unto repentance'.

And BELIEF isn't a "work". It's a state of mind.

While God said thru James that faith without worx is dead, He was speaking of those able to perform good worx. The repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus could do no work at all, nor be baptized,but Jesus saved him because of his FAITH & BELIEF.

I'm not speaking of one who becomes complacent about God, ceasing to attend church, etc. I'm speaking of one who ABANDONS HIS BELIEF IN GOD, turning his back on Christ completely. 'Tis easy to say such a person never had any true faith to begin with, but that's just an excuse.


It passage never suggests that anyone stops believing in God.
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Hey robycop, what's up?

I once heard the argument that Judas (the son of perdition) could be considered the Holy Spirit's partaker (being that he was chosen by Christ to partake in [or is it "of"] his ministry). It might be a long shot, but it's certainly an interesting argument from a different perspective that I never heard of until just now. You can read more here: http://doulogos.blogspot.com/2009/01/do ... at-is.html

God bless, Brother.

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