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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Article on "Once Saved, Always Saved!"


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What is this "Altar"?

That is in RC churches.


Is Your all on the Altar

Words & Music: Eli­sha A. Hoff­man, 1905 (MI­DI, score).

You have longed for sweet peace,
And for faith to increase,
And have earnestly, fervently prayed;
But you cannot have rest,
Or be perfectly blest,
Until all on the altar is laid.

Refrain

Is your all on the altar of sacrifice laid?
Your heart does the Spirit control?
You can only be blest,
And have peace and sweet rest,
As you yield Him your body and soul.

Would you walk with the Lord,
In the light of His Word,
And have peace and contentment alway?
You must do His sweet will,
To be free from all ill,
On the altar your all you must lay.

Refrain

O we never can know
What the Lord will bestow
Of the blessings for which we have prayed,
Till our body and soul
He doth fully control,
And our all on the altar is laid.

Refrain

Who can tell all the love
He will send from above,
And how happy our hearts will be made,
Of the fellowship sweet
We shall share at His feet,
When our all on the altar is laid.

Refrain
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The use of the word altar is used by many non-Catholics. Many Baptists even teach the importance of having a family altar and they certainly aren't advocating Roman Catholicism.

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Yes, the word "altar" occurs 378 times in the KJB. But the New Testament "altar" is not a physical thing where animals are sacrificed; instead, it can be the point at which believers present themselves as a living sacrifice to God. It is a "place" of giving; the giving of gifts of praise to God or the giving of love to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Hebrews 13:10-16
Our church has no physical piece of furniture called an "altar" but that is what we call the place where we kneel at the front. I should have just said "when I came forward" or something like that. But anyway....I was saved before I left the pew.

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Like John 81 says, the only way I can assume another person is saved is by seeing a change in their life, or the fruit of the Spirit working and bearing witness to me.
I can see a change in their life, but I can't see into their heart; only God can do that. But I can be certain of my own salvation because I was there when Jesus came into my heart, and I know what He did for me. The people in the church house could hear me tearfully cry out "Jesus!" as I hurried to the altar, but only He and I knew that He filled me with His Spirit. So really, they had to see a change in my life as well.


I guess we both agree then that a change of some magnitude must take place. Without change, I fear for that soul hanging on by a "prayer" .... it's never just a prayer alone, but the repentance that leads to the prayer. Without repentance I can't see genuine salvation. One must see the error in their ways and want to change.

I guess that is where I bunt heads with some of the eternal security folks. They look at the Bible and see an absolute moment of rebirth. A date. A time. I don't disagree that it's faith alone that saves, but the Bible shows many times where head knowledge won't get you far. It's a genuine moment of rebirth where one sees the need to trust Christ alone and nothing else. And at that moment the insides are changed and the child of God starts a journey along with the Holy Spirit. That child will never be separated from God.

But, I see an earthly hand reaching our for a gift with a stipulation attached. God says to love him and keep his commandments and that faith without works is dead. If someone seeks God and starts the walk but then suddenly stops and has zero works and zero love for God I believe the Bible says they are still lost. Some say they had no saving faith, but it's not about a moment of salvation but about a beginning that must grow. Edited by God's Child
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When it comes down to it, either a person truly accepts Christ, which entails repentance that brings about change in ones life and leads to good works; or they never truly accepted Christ.

A head knowledge of Christ and accepting Christ intellectually isn't the same as acknowledging Christ in your heart in repentance and becoming a follower of Christ. The first is still in his sins while the other has been biblically born again.

One thing many professing Christians, pastors and churches fail to teach today is that Christ called for followers, disciples. The idea that one can have Jesus as Saviour while not accepting Him as Lord is a false teaching that's leading untold tens of thousands to hell.

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When it comes down to it, either a person truly accepts Christ, which entails repentance that brings about change in ones life and leads to good works; or they never truly accepted Christ.

A head knowledge of Christ and accepting Christ intellectually isn't the same as acknowledging Christ in your heart in repentance and becoming a follower of Christ. The first is still in his sins while the other has been biblically born again.

One thing many professing Christians, pastors and churches fail to teach today is that Christ called for followers, disciples. The idea that one can have Jesus as Saviour while not accepting Him as Lord is a false teaching that's leading untold tens of thousands to hell.


I agree with what you say. But, Luke 8:11-13 cause me to also believe that one can accept the word and be saved sadly for only a short period. Edited by God's Child
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There are always those who seem to accept Christ, and even think they have, yet who have not truly repented and accepted Christ according to the Word of God. These often seem to bloom greatly but then have a great "falling away". This "falling away" is really a matter of them returning to their nature because they never took on the new nature of Christ.

We see some of this in First John where we are told that some left them, these were ones they all thought were true Christians with them, yet they went away because they had never truly been of them to begin with.

This is whey Scripture admonishes all of us to examine our salvation, to check our faith, to be sure we are truly born again in Christ, so we don't risk being among those who think they are Christians but will one day hear Christ tell them they must depart because He never knew them.

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There are always those who seem to accept Christ, and even think they have, yet who have not truly repented and accepted Christ according to the Word of God. These often seem to bloom greatly but then have a great "falling away". This "falling away" is really a matter of them returning to their nature because they never took on the new nature of Christ.

We see some of this in First John where we are told that some left them, these were ones they all thought were true Christians with them, yet they went away because they had never truly been of them to begin with.

This is whey Scripture admonishes all of us to examine our salvation, to check our faith, to be sure we are truly born again in Christ, so we don't risk being among those who think they are Christians but will one day hear Christ tell them they must depart because He never knew them.


I believe all that you state above. Curious, from what I share about conditional preservation of the saints would you question the gospel I follow as yet another gospel, or non-essential doctrine not valid toward the gospel that saves? Edited by God's Child
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I guess we both agree then that a change of some magnitude must take place. Without change, I fear for that soul hanging on by a "prayer" .... it's never just a prayer alone, but the repentance that leads to the prayer. Without repentance I can't see genuine salvation. One must see the error in their ways and want to change.

I guess that is where I bunt heads with some of the eternal security folks. They look at the Bible and see an absolute moment of rebirth. A date. A time. I don't disagree that it's faith alone that saves, but the Bible shows many times where head knowledge won't get you far. It's a genuine moment of rebirth where one sees the need to trust Christ alone and nothing else. And at that moment the insides are changed and the child of God starts a journey along with the Holy Spirit. That child will never be separated from God. But, I see an earthly hand reaching our for a gift with a stipulation attached. God says to love him and keep his commandments and that faith without works is dead. If someone seeks God and starts the walk but then suddenly stops and has zero works and zero love for God I believe the Bible says they are still lost. Some say they had no saving faith, but it's not about a moment of salvation but about a beginning that must grow.

Some are strong in their faith and they grew from being a babe in Christ. Others just seem to stagnate. I fear for the unchanged "Christian" because I believe God reached out, He saved them, and then they rejected him in their infant state. They didn't build on a rock. They were seed on bad soil. I don't know how long God gives the babe in Christ, but if they don't start to grow I fear for them. I believe the speck of saving faith is small, just so one trust Christ alone and what he did on the Cross. But, how can one expect eternal life if they don't trust Christ anymore? Bible says they are dead, and dead means no life at all. Maybe they are weak, and still trust Christ, and maybe they are dead and don't want Christ. What about those moments of life? Was that nothing at all or maybe God turning the key and starting the journey. They didn't grow, they didn't care, they died, they gave God back his gift and said I don't really want it after all.

Am I the judge? No. But the Bible says faith without works is dead. That should fear people. Those hanging on by a prayer don't fear, they just accept they are helpless humans and that God made this magical way to heaven. They assume Christ is their advocate even as they reject him. They say he saved them on such and such a date. How foolish. They have no moment when they trusted him as their savior, they just have a date then when acquired head knowledge.

Not sure my stand is clear.


God'sChild,
On a Sunday morning, May 11, 1986 in the Berean Baptist Church, about 3 or 4 pews back, on the left side of the auditorium, Jesus came into my heart when I beleived and called on His name right after the preacher had preached a sermon entitled "The Lord is my Shepherd". This is what the Bible says happened......

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So, 24 years ago I heard the Word and the moment I believed on Jesus I was a possessor of everlasting life, passed from death unto life, with a promise that I would never go to Hell. Please read this verse.......

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Now read the next verse........

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did you catch that? God says that He "Knoweth them that are His", but in the future when He puts those in the Lake of Fire He won't say "I used to know you"; No, He will say to all of them "I never knew you. Edited by heartstrings
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This isn't true. Catholics believe in verial and mortal sins, and if you commit a mortal sin you lose your salvation unless you confess it to a priest (catholic) fast enough. They also believe that assurance of salvation - ie belief - is a sin, and also "believe" that babies if baptised are saved - but where is the belief in that? From the moment of water baptism, "belief" and faith has no meaning in a catholic setting. Believing has nothing to do with being saved. Being marked on the forehead by a priest is what has meaning in the catholic church. Paul says accursed is he that brings in any different gospel than the one he taught.
Edited by MaxKennedy
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If he was truly saved to begin with, yes he is still saved.
There's a BIG difference in a child of God, born from above, and a mere "professing Christian".
But real children of God, have and do sometimes live in unbelief. But it is God who is faithful.
The prodigal son, left his father, but he was still a son.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


the problem is that since we are saved by faith, you have asserted that a man with no faith is saved.
Also, you did not quote the whole verse, and totally misapplied the last clause! It says if we deny Him, He will deny us. Period. And Christ told the 12 that if they denied Him before men He would deny them before the Father-Matt.10. The Bible speaks of those who depart from the faith, those whose faith has been destroyed, those who shipwreck faith, and faith that only endures for awhile.

The story of the Prodigal Son was not given to teach OSAS, it was to get Jews to understand the mercy of God in Christ being kind and accepting ot the Samaritans. The point is that if a Samaritan repents, the Father will gladly receive him back. So should the elder brothers--the Jews. To insert OSAS here is to read the story out of context and twist it. Interestingly, in John 15:1-6, we are told to abide in HIm, and He in us, and every branch in HIm that does not abide will wither, die and ultimately be gathered for a burning. OSAS is not only unBiblical, but utterly dangerous to men's souls and a believer's sanctification and desires to be holy and live an overcoming life.
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Also, you did not quote the whole verse, and totally misapplied the last clause! It says if we deny Him, He will deny us. Period.

Here's the whole passage:

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

In verse 12 it does say "he will deny us", but what will he deny? The colon in the middle of verse 12 gives us the answer "reign with him". If we deny living for Christ and suffering ("if we suffer") for him in this life then he will deny our reign with him in the next, but it's not a denying of salvation. The Christian is already born again and in Christ, it's a done deal, he can't be unborn and fall out of Christ, "he cannot deny himself".

The Bible speaks of those who depart from the faith, those whose faith has been destroyed, those who shipwreck faith, and faith that only endures for awhile.

The only faith that saves is the "faith of Jesus Christ", it's not the faith in Jesus Christ, it's not our faith that saves us, it's His. The faith of Christ is a gift to us who believe in Him for salvation.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

OSAS is a blessed truth of scripture! Edited by Soj
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Once Saved, Always Saved!

For instance, consider an apple tree: it doesn't bear apples to become an apple tree; neither does it bear apples to stay an apple tree. It bears apples because God made it an apple tree.



Interresting illustration. Why don't we consider for a moment another illustration. We will use your own statement changing on the word apple to fig and apples into figs.

"...it doesn't bear FIGS to become a FIG tree; neither does it bear FIGS to stay a FIG tree. It bears FIGS because GOd made it a FIG tree." What happened to the fig tree which did not produce figs (Mark 11:13ff)? Was it never really a fig tree because it did not bear figs? By your own statement it was still a fig tree though it did not bear fruit. What response did Christ have to the fig tree that bore no fruit? What does that teach us about this very subject? Hmmmmm.......

We might further discuss Luke 13:6ff to better understand this.
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Could someone who holds the view of "once saved always saved" explain something to me? I have heard those who believe in this doctrine claim that if a person "fell away" then he was "never saved in the first place." By this argument, how could one ever really know that he was indeed saved to start with since at some point he might turn to sin and then would in fact never have been saved in the first place.

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I am going to take the Bible for what it says. Eternal life, everlasting life, never leave me nor forsake me.

I use this illustration and it has become even more real to me because of my own son.

When we have a child born to us is there anything that can make that child no longer our child.

I have a son who has gone as far away from what he has been taught is right you can say he has done a 180 degree turn from the way he was brought up. He even got to the point he had to be told, "Do not return until you get right."

Is he no longer my son? If he denies me as his father is he no longer my son? If he changes his name, is he no longer my son? If he suffers from so unknown disease, has reaction to some drug, illicit or not, and his brain or reasoning somehow malfunctions, is he no longer my son?

What does that have to do with eternal security? Because that is what it is, eternal security. Once I have become a child of God, I am a child of God. No one, not me, you or anyone else can change that. My son will always be my son and I will be his dad.

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I am going to take the Bible for what it says. Eternal life, everlasting life, never leave me nor forsake me.

I use this illustration and it has become even more real to me because of my own son.

When we have a child born to us is there anything that can make that child no longer our child.

I have a son who has gone as far away from what he has been taught is right you can say he has done a 180 degree turn from the way he was brought up. He even got to the point he had to be told, "Do not return until you get right."

Is he no longer my son? If he denies me as his father is he no longer my son? If he changes his name, is he no longer my son? If he suffers from so unknown disease, has reaction to some drug, illicit or not, and his brain or reasoning somehow malfunctions, is he no longer my son?

What does that have to do with eternal security? Because that is what it is, eternal security. Once I have become a child of God, I am a child of God. No one, not me, you or anyone else can change that. My son will always be my son and I will be his dad.


:amen:
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Here's the whole passage:

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

In verse 12 it does say "he will deny us", but what will he deny? The colon in the middle of verse 12 gives us the answer "reign with him". If we deny living for Christ and suffering ("if we suffer") for him in this life then he will deny our reign with him in the next, but it's not a denying of salvation. The Christian is already born again and in Christ, it's a done deal, he can't be unborn and fall out of Christ, "he cannot deny himself".


The only faith that saves is the "faith of Jesus Christ", it's not the faith in Jesus Christ, it's not our faith that saves us, it's His. The faith of Christ is a gift to us who believe in Him for salvation.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

OSAS is a blessed truth of scripture!



Your interpretation of 2Tim 2 :12 is clearly incorrect. It lists different things. If we suffer with HIm--will will reign with Him in the Millenium. But if we DENY HIM rather than suffer, He will deny us. Christ already made it plain what He would do and what it meant. He would I say that He does not know us before the Father and the angels. This is about salvation, not about denying us a reign. That is simply a side-step some have come up with the blunt the force of all the verses that disprove OSAS. So they admit it teaches a form of loss, but it will be some millenial loss. That is clearly an Ad Hoc theory to save OSAS. It was never arrived at by a careful, inductive study of the Bible. OSAS apologists came up with this idea to save their unBiblical doctrine.

The last part is misused to deny the previous clause! It says if we become faithless--if we believers stop believing--believe not, He stays the same--faithful. Clearly it is possible, under the pressure of suffering, to not only deny the Lord, but to cease to believe. Even though we would deny Him, He doesn't change, for He cannot deny Himself. Therefore, if we are to be like Him, we must not deny Him either.

That verse absolutely refutes OSAS. The spin offered by OSAS apologists is obvious.

Next we are offered a theory that its not our faith that saved us, but Christs. Its given to us, and since its His, it can't fail. Well 2Tim 2:12 denies this. We all know of real believers who bore fruit, that later fell away, and some deny the reality of Christianity now.

Also, this idea shows a lack of understandingof this language. Christ told the woman "Daughter, YOUR FAITH has saved you"-Luke 7:50. In Eph 1:13 Paul we says we first trusted in Christ after we heard the gospel. This idea that its Christ's faith and not ours is nonsense. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The reason its the faith "of" Christ is because the message is about Christ. That message stirs faith in us. There is no support for OSAS with arguments like these. They are clearly artificial and contrived
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Your interpretation of 2Tim 2 :12 is clearly incorrect. It lists different things. If we suffer with HIm--will will reign with Him in the Millenium. But if we DENY HIM rather than suffer, He will deny us. Christ already made it plain what He would do and what it meant. He would I say that He does not know us before the Father and the angels. This is about salvation, not about denying us a reign. That is simply a side-step some have come up with the blunt the force of all the verses that disprove OSAS. So they admit it teaches a form of loss, but it will be some millenial loss. That is clearly an Ad Hoc theory to save OSAS. It was never arrived at by a careful, inductive study of the Bible. OSAS apologists came up with this idea to save their unBiblical doctrine.

The last part is misused to deny the previous clause! It says if we become faithless--if we believers stop believing--believe not, He stays the same--faithful. Clearly it is possible, under the pressure of suffering, to not only deny the Lord, but to cease to believe. Even though we would deny Him, He doesn't change, for He cannot deny Himself. Therefore, if we are to be like Him, we must not deny Him either.

That verse absolutely refutes OSAS. The spin offered by OSAS apologists is obvious.

Next we are offered a theory that its not our faith that saved us, but Christs. Its given to us, and since its His, it can't fail. Well 2Tim 2:12 denies this. We all know of real believers who bore fruit, that later fell away, and some deny the reality of Christianity now.

Also, this idea shows a lack of understandingof this language. Christ told the woman "Daughter, YOUR FAITH has saved you"-Luke 7:50. In Eph 1:13 Paul we says we first trusted in Christ after we heard the gospel. This idea that its Christ's faith and not ours is nonsense. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The reason its the faith "of" Christ is because the message is about Christ. That message stirs faith in us. There is no support for OSAS with arguments like these. They are clearly artificial and contrived

You said: "Incorrect, side-step, theory, unbiblical, misused, spin, lack of understanding, nonsense, artificial and contrived."

Faith1611, judging by the fruit of your reply, you can't surely expect me to believe you are speaking by the Spirit of God and representing the truth of God? If the belief you hold to on this subject leads you to communicating in this manner to your 'Christian brethren' then I want nothing to do with it.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

To me you are nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing, but your sheep's disguise is weak, I can see the wolf a mile away. I hope the administrators of this forum can too.
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You said: "Incorrect, side-step, theory, unbiblical, misused, spin, lack of understanding, nonsense, artificial and contrived."

Faith1611, judging by the fruit of your reply, you can't surely expect me to believe you are speaking by the Spirit of God and representing the truth of God? If the belief you hold to on this subject leads you to communicating in this manner to your 'Christian brethren' then I want nothing to do with it.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

To me you are nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing, but your sheep's disguise is weak, I can see the wolf a mile away. I hope the administrators of this forum can too.


Amen Soj, anotherone who wants to ask a question and then proceed to "straighten" people out. Edited by Bro Jim
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