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Baptist churches that supports the LGBTQ movement


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1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

Evil can also be sinners, I believe were you mentioned above. 

Those who are evil ARE sinners, as we all are. The only difference is that Christians are covered/forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. 

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2 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

Evil can also be sinners, I believe were you mentioned above. 

Yes, while the church building/services are open to the lost (and yes, I will make this caveat - to those who are not openly flaunting their sin), no lost person should be welcomed as a member  until they actually trust in Christ for salvation and there is evidence of a change (ie. evidence of being born again).

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On 5/30/2022 at 2:36 PM, Jerry said:

An Independent Baptist church is autonomous. Not all Baptist churches are that way. If they are part of a convention, for example, they are not.

That being said, if someone else dictated that they follow a certain guideline or did certain things, then those ones would not be autonomous either. The simple act of having a headquarters dictating beliefs or practices would make those churches a denomination. One of the Baptist Distinctives is the autonomy of the local church. Of course, there are many Baptist churches that do not follow this distinctive.

We can fellowship and even work together to some extent with other likeminded independent Baptist churches, but are not linked together in the sense where one tells the other what to do or believe.

Can you give an example of a  Baptist church that is in a "convention" that isn't  autonomous??? I know that in the SBC all of the churches are autonomous, and they aren't even truly a convention. They only cooperate in missions giving, and many don't even do that. It's just some churches way of stating they are like-minded...sort of like "Independent, Fundamental".....

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You know what is really wired, that there those that are against the LGBTQ movement, against the gay marriages  movement, against abortions, under the Christian umbrella, and don’t even attend a church. Also those that support this movement and say that they are Christians. There are those so call Christian against the government, where there is no business they should be, like gun control. Oil and water don’t mix.

vanish virtual reality GIF by Woodblock

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1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

Can you give an example of a  Baptist church that is in a "convention" that isn't  autonomous??? I know that in the SBC all of the churches are autonomous, and they aren't even truly a convention. They only cooperate in missions giving, and many don't even do that. It's just some churches way of stating they are like-minded...sort of like "Independent, Fundamental".....

Tony, you keep saying that SBC churches are autonomous. It seems like you are trying to justify your not being in a truly Independent Church. If autonomy is really important , why not be truly Independent?

It has been my experience that "Convention" churches are always spouting "autonomy", while at the same time, caving in to the convention's programs. Autonomy and Independence consists of a lot more than your explanation of SBC churches. For instance, while  a convention or fellowship may not mandate that churches in the convention go along with the convention programs, most, if not all, will follow the convention's guidelines. 

A couple of examples would be: The convention's Sunday School quarterlies being used by convention churches, as well as AWANA, which program is used by most, if not all, convention churches.

And finally I would submit that, as far as Bible guidance is concerned, we do not see conventions or fellowships in Scripture, each church was truly autonomous in all respects.

As far as "mission boards", there is no scriptural justification for them. Mission boards are man made inventions, with men in positions on the boards that are drawing more money than the missionaries in most cases. The bible example is missionaries sent out y Independent churches, not mission  boards. In many cases the board gets the final say-so as to who goes where, and even makes the decision to send a missionary where he is burdened to go or not. There are even allegations that a mission board will keep, or take out  a missionary it deems unacceptable, or his work is not acceptable to the board.

Mission boards, apart from being unscriptural, serve only to siphon off funding that would be better used on the actual mission field.

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I believe the SBC was a strong Bible Preaching church in the past, some time ago. I attended and enjoy serving with them. Even if they don’t use the KJV. But the new generation of believers in the SBC, are selling out. Becoming more liberal in all ways. Not all of them-yet, but this change is bringing growth in members. So if you can’t beat them, join them. Right 

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On 6/2/2022 at 12:07 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

Tony, you keep saying that SBC churches are autonomous. It seems like you are trying to justify your not being in a truly Independent Church. If autonomy is really important , why not be truly Independent?

I attend church where the Lord leads me to go. I don't have to justify what he's told me to do. The churches associated with the SBC are autonomous...they each have the same characteristics of the Baptist church that they all have, whether IFB, SBC, BMA, ABA, etc. The are truly independent. They don't answer to the "convention." The "convention is actually only the meeting of the churches to decide how to control their combined missions dollars. And, not every church that is associated with the SBC gives to the missions cooperative, yet, they  still fellowship with the SBC.

On 6/2/2022 at 12:07 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

It has been my experience that "Convention" churches are always spouting "autonomy", while at the same time, caving in to the convention's programs. Autonomy and Independence consists of a lot more than your explanation of SBC churches. For instance, while  a convention or fellowship may not mandate that churches in the convention go along with the convention programs, most, if not all, will follow the convention's guidelines.

Yet, in EVERY IFB church I've been a member of, they are members of a state association of Baptist churches, or an association/fellowship that controls a college/institution of higher learning, or mission board. Not all followed the "recommendations"  of the fellowship or association. Why?? Because they were autonomous, not having a hierarchical nature or structure.  Your experience is just that, your experience, not necessarily right, but, then again, not necessarily wrong.

On 6/2/2022 at 12:07 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

 

 

 

 

On 6/2/2022 at 12:07 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

A couple of examples would be: The convention's Sunday School quarterlies being used by convention churches, as well as AWANA, which program is used by most, if not all, convention churches.

And finally I would submit that, as far as Bible guidance is concerned, we do not see conventions or fellowships in Scripture, each church was truly autonomous in all respects.

The church I am a member of uses the Lifeway books at times, but not because they are compelled to, nor do they use the AWANA program for their youth. We find what works best for our church, not the SBC finding it for us. Truly autonomous.  The Bible doesn't strictly forbid fellowships/associations either. 

On 6/2/2022 at 12:07 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

As far as "mission boards", there is no scriptural justification for them. Mission boards are man made inventions, with men in positions on the boards that are drawing more money than the missionaries in most cases. The bible example is missionaries sent out y Independent churches, not mission  boards. In many cases the board gets the final say-so as to who goes where, and even makes the decision to send a missionary where he is burdened to go or not. There are even allegations that a mission board will keep, or take out  a missionary it deems unacceptable, or his work is not acceptable to the board.

Mission boards, apart from being unscriptural, serve only to siphon off funding that would be better used on the actual mission field.

I totally agree with your assessments of missions boards, but, yet we find them in the IFB circles, and in the SBC and other Baptist groups. I prefer to let the Lord tell me whom to send missions dollars to. I don't participate in our churches missions cooperative giving. I designate that the tithes all go to the salary and upkeep of the church, salary of the pastor, assistant, and church staff. Nothing is to be given to the cooperative. I've done that for over six years now. 

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4 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:Yet, in EVERY IFB church I've been a member of, they are members of a state association of Baptist churches, or an association/fellowship that controls a college/institution of higher learning, or mission board. Not all followed the "recommendations"  of the fellowship or association. Why?? Because they were autonomous, not having a hierarchical nature or structure.  Your experience is just that, your experience, not necessarily right, but, then again, not necessarily wrong.

 

Wow… I’ve never been to an IFB that’s a member of an association. In my opinion, that means they are not truly independent. 

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33 minutes ago, Salyan said:

Wow… I’ve never been to an IFB that’s a member of an association. In my opinion, that means they are not truly independent. 

Exactly! They are not independent (by very definition of the word itself) if they are part of a convention, an association, or anything like that.

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41 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Yet, in EVERY IFB church I've been a member of, they are members of a state association of Baptist churches, or an association/fellowship that controls a college/institution of higher learning, or mission board. Not all followed the "recommendations"  of the fellowship or association. Why?? Because they were autonomous, not having a hierarchical nature or structure.  Your experience is just that, your experience, not necessarily right, but, then again, not necessarily wrong.

 

A fellowship is something entirely different than a convention. I''ve never been in an SBC church that wasn't required to support the missions of the SBC, they may have their own but they have to kick in for the SBC missions.

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2 minutes ago, 1Timothy115 said:

A fellowship is something entirely different than a convention. I''ve never been in an SBC church that wasn't required to support the missions of the SBC, they may have their own but they have to kick in for the SBC missions.

McGuire, Lottie moon, and Annie Armstrong brings in Over 200 million combined yearly. They must be doing something right. SBC 

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Well, it would depend on the fellowship and what goes on. For instance, there is a group here in WA called the Washington Independent Baptist Fellowship.  Any independent Baptist church can become part of the fellowship, just by the pastor attending a meeting. However, there are no dues, nor any central place where tithe from the church is sent, nor missions money gathering, etc.  It is simply a fellowship of like-minded believers who get together to, well, fellowship and help each other if needed.  There is no way that anyone would be accurate to say that the churches involved are not independent, because they simply are.  

The church that started ours has hosted the monthly meeting of the WIBF, and that is how we came to know of them. And I guarantee that church is not part of any association/fellowship/whatever that would in any way supersede pastoral or congregational authority. Nor would my husband.

But there is an SBC church in the town where our church is...they were in need of a pastor. But the membership had nothing to do with it...they were waiting on the pastor the convention sent them. And, yes, I do know that's what happened. 😉

Oh, and the WIBF has no college that "it" supports (it cannot, as there are no "central" funds), nor even one that "it" recommends. There is no mission board, and the only connection to missions is that when there is a missionary on deputation, sometimes the churches are made aware of the missionary if the church would like to have them in. But even that is spotty...and "the fellowship" makes no recommendations of any kind. Again, the biggest thing the fellowship does is make us aware of prayer requests. Not very controlling. LOL

 

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2 hours ago, Salyan said:

Wow… I’ve never been to an IFB that’s a member of an association. In my opinion, that means they are not truly independent. 

Wrong. A loose knit fellowship or association of churches are totally independent. It's just a group of like minded churches that fellowship together. None has authority over the other. 

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1 hour ago, HappyChristian said:

Well, it would depend on the fellowship and what goes on. For instance, there is a group here in WA called the Washington Independent Baptist Fellowship.  Any independent Baptist church can become part of the fellowship, just by the pastor attending a meeting. However, there are no dues, nor any central place where tithe from the church is sent, nor missions money gathering, etc.  It is simply a fellowship of like-minded believers who get together to, well, fellowship and help each other if needed.  There is no way that anyone would be accurate to say that the churches involved are not independent, because they simply are.  

The church that started ours has hosted the monthly meeting of the WIBF, and that is how we came to know of them. And I guarantee that church is not part of any association/fellowship/whatever that would in any way supersede pastoral or congregational authority. Nor would my husband.

But there is an SBC church in the town where our church is...they were in need of a pastor. But the membership had nothing to do with it...they were waiting on the pastor the convention sent them. And, yes, I do know that's what happened. 😉

Oh, and the WIBF has no college that "it" supports (it cannot, as there are no "central" funds), nor even one that "it" recommends. There is no mission board, and the only connection to missions is that when there is a missionary on deputation, sometimes the churches are made aware of the missionary if the church would like to have them in. But even that is spotty...and "the fellowship" makes no recommendations of any kind. Again, the biggest thing the fellowship does is make us aware of prayer requests. Not very controlling. LOL

 

Yes, there are some churches that fellowship with the SBC that allow the local or state association to recommend and send a pastor in view of a call. Then, regrettably, there are some that still call themselves Southern Baptist that allow the pastor to name his successor, as is the case with Pastor Rick Warrn of the Purpose Drive Life fame. He just named his successor/s and they are a husband and wife team, which the churches of the SBC don't approve of. It's possible that the churches of the SBC will disfellowship this church as they've done many others for unbiblical stances. Still, it's up to each church to decide on whether or not they fellowship with these kinds of churches.

In the part of missions, having been raised IFB, I would rather those wishing to go to the missionfield come to the churches on deputation.  Using the cooperative, though, the SBC (not necessarily all of us who go to SBC churches) agree to pool resources to get the missionaries to the missionfield more quickly. The reasons I would rather have them come the churches is because of the intrusion of "reformed" theology into the SBC's institutions of higher learning. Calvinism is destroying many of them and turning some away from Christ. Secondly is that we don't really get a chance to examine these candidates forthe missionfield personally by "cooperating" in getting them to the missionfield  earlier. Then, they don't come to the churches when they're home for their sabbatical from the field. I've pointed out that this is a really questionable way to my pastor and the deacons of our church, and it'snot made me very a very popular person. So be it. I'm used to not being "popular."  

2 hours ago, Jerry said:

Exactly! They are not independent (by very definition of the word itself) if they are part of a convention, an association, or anything like that.

Of course, you're always welcome to your opinion.  Independent doesn't mean they can't fellowship in a fellowship or association. Do you fellowship with anyone that has similar ideas of your family? Same thing. They hold no sway over each other and aren't accountable to each other. 

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2 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

A fellowship is something entirely different than a convention. I''ve never been in an SBC church that wasn't required to support the missions of the SBC, they may have their own but they have to kick in for the SBC missions.

No, they don't. There are several in our local association who don't, and many churches that don't support the missions or cooperative at the present. 

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4 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Wrong. A loose knit fellowship or association of churches are totally independent. It's just a group of like minded churches that fellowship together. None has authority over the other. 

I like how the guy who isn't actually independent has such a strong opinion on it. Maybe look to your own church before telling me how mine works. Associations do not equal independence.

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7 hours ago, Salyan said:

I like how the guy who isn't actually independent has such a strong opinion on it. Maybe look to your own church before telling me how mine works. Associations do not equal independence.

Yet, we see a lot of the same thing in the IFB churches...Sorry, your argument just doesn't cut it. And your contiued dogging me as you've done since I came to these forums shows your bias. You don't want to accept that each SBC church is autonomous, that's on you, not on me. I am independent, and so is our church. I've not said anything about your church. So, why the prevarication on your part?

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      Brother Tony, I read your reply on Anderson, I know you all think I'm argumentative but, when you don't agree.....the first thought I had is, I wish you would introduce me to the guy that hasn't sinned, maybe David, that had a man killed so he could commit adultery, yet, he was & is a man after Gods own heart, or maybe Paul the guy that persecuted and had Christians killed, or maybe Richg or Kent H, or even you ! I used to listen to personalities also when I was younger but today and for some time, my only concern is, does it line up with scripture & to me its hilarious that you think "I'm in a fix" LOL, I interpreted what we've discussed perfectly, not because I'm smart, but because with an open mind to things of God, its an easy read.
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