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THE Great BLESSING OF ELECTION


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Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader

 

pt1

ABSTRACT OF SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY.

CHAPTER XXIX.

ELECTION.

THE words Elect, Election, Foreordination, Chosen, Foreknow, and Foreknowledge occur so frequently in Scripture, that it is allowed by all that the Scriptures teach a doctrine of Election of some kind. The chief controversy is as to what that doctrine is.

Several theories have been presented as descriptive of the instructions of the Scriptures.

I. First there is the theory set forth by the celebrated John Locke in his Commentary and Paraphrase of the Epistles of Paul. It has been called the theory of Nationalism. According to this, Election consists "in the choice of certain whole nations into the pale of the visible Church Catholic, which choice, however, relates purely to their privileged condition in this world extending not to their collective eternal state in another world." The cause of this election is: "That same absolute good pleasure of God, which, through the exercise of his sovereign power, led him to choose the posterity of Jacob, rather than that of Esau, that, upon earth, they should become his peculiar people and be made the depositaries and preservers of the true religion." ["Faber's Primitive Election," p. 22.]

The objections to this theory are evident, and may be briefly stated.

I. That the election spoken of in the New Testament is all election of persons within a nation, and not of the nation itself. A distinction is made between the Jewish nation, and the remnant of them according to the election of grace. Rom. 11:5. It is also said in verse 7: "That which Israel seeketh for that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened."

Mr. Locke attempts to remove this difficulty by supposing that the Israel here spoken of is the whole nation before the loss of the ten tribes, and that the remnant is all of the rest that remained Jews at the time Paul wrote. But, that the present nation was the Israel referred to Paul himself shows by applying to it, in Romans 10:21, the title of Israel. "But as to Israel," he saith, "All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gain-saying people." The Israel to whom Isaiah, who is here referred to, went, was Judah; his prophecies were but seldom made to the Ten Tribes.

2. A distinction is also made between persons in the same nation; the elect being separated from others, as in Matt. 24:22-24, where fearful calamities are foretold, and it is said, that prophets shall arise, etc., and that if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect.

The parallel passage is in Mark 13: 20-22.

3. Against this theory may also be quoted such passages as show that the called, and the elect are not identical, as:

Matt. 22:14. "Many are called, but few chosen."

II. A modification of this theory has been made or rather another one has been suggested so similar that the idea has evidently been caught from that of Locke. It is given by George Stanley Faber in his work on "The Primitive Doctrine of Election." It may be called the theory of Church Election, or of External Church privileges. Mr. Faber states it as follows: "The idea is that of an Election of individuals into the pale of the visible church, with God's moral purpose that through faith and holiness they should attain everlasting life; but yet with a moral possibility of their abusing their privileges even to their own final destruction."

1. It is argued in favor of this, that "we never find one particular set of Christians addressed as being especially elect to the exclusion of all other Christians, who, together with the unconverted world at large, are thence exhibited as reprobates. But we constantly find that all the members of the local church addressed are collectively saluted as being in God's purpose and design elected through holiness to glory."

In reply it may be remarked:

(1.) That this argument proceeds upon the erroneous supposition that there were persons called Christians in Apostolic times who did not actually profess to be converted persons, and therefore were not properly to be regarded as such.

Every argument in favor of a converted church membership is an argument against this supposition, and, therefore, against this theory.

(2.) Or it proceeds upon a second erroneous supposition, namely, that the Apostles undertook to pronounce infallibly upon the spiritual condition of those to whom they wrote. On the contrary, proceeding upon the rule, "By their fruits ye shall know them," they, in the judgement of charity, spoke of those to whom they wrote as though they were actually Christians, because professedly such, and maintaining outwardly the life of such. Thus they are called "holy," in like manner as they are called "elect," and are said to be "holy and without blemish before him in love," (Eph. 1:4;) and to have redemption, and the forgiveness of trespasses, v. 7; and to have obtained an inheritance, of which the sealing of the Spirit was an earnest.

2. In favor of this view, it is asserted that the Apostle teaches us in Rom. 9:6-26, that the terms election and elect are used in the same sense in which they are used in the Old Testament.

To this it may be replied:

(1.) That if true it favors the theory of Nationalism rather than this.

(2.) That the Apostle himself distinguishes between the extent of the election, which had before existed, and that which was now manifested. "They are not all Israel who are of Israel." "Neither because they are Abraham's seed are they all children," (Rom. 9:7); thus indicating that the limitation had been formerly made according to the national extent, but that now a segregation is made from this. The two elections, therefore, differ in extent.

(3.) But the difference is also in kind. This is what affects this theory most closely. Even under the old election, not all the children, but simply the one of the promise is the one in whom the election exists. Under the new, the same thing is true, the election is not of all to whom the external privileges connected with it belong, but of those only who are partakers of the promise. In this respect they are similar, and so Paul indicates: "The children of the promise are reckoned for a seed." Rom. 9:8. But formerly the promise was of Isaac, wherefore it was said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Rom. 9:7. And that promise was of the land of Canaan, which was granted actually to all of his descendants as a class. So also now, the children of the promise are the elect; but they are not all to whom the external privileges of hearing the gospel, or even of entering the church of Christ, are given, for unto these as a class this promise is not fulfilled; but, simply, to those who truly embrace the gospel, and by faith in Jesus are vitally united to him. It is to this class only that the election refers. There is, therefore, a difference in kind indicated by the Apostle.

3. It is said that the addresses to the churches contained in the letters of the Apostles, indicate the election of the whole churches, and that, consequently, election must be merely to external church privileges. Dr. Faber does not cite the passages at length, because he thinks that any attentive reader, by attending to them, will readily perceive their palpably universalizing tendency. But he adduces as proof the beginnings of Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and 1 Peter.

(1.) Of these, singular to say, none speak of election in the addresses to the churches, except Ephesians, the two Thessalonians and 1 Peter. But the others all speak of the saints and of a calling to sanctification. The truth is, that, as they professed to be God's children, the Apostle, in the judgement of charity, speaks of them as such, and this is shown by the language of all the salutations as well as of the epistles at large.

(2.) The language in Ephesians is used as inclusive, not only of those to whom he wrote, but of himself also. It evidently is intended to refer to him and them, as having like hopes, and being partakers of like promises. That, at least, it is not intended to refer to the mere privilege of church membership, is evident from the fact that the apostle speaks of these persons as "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," Ch. 1:13. They are spoken of as having been "quickened," (Ch. 2:1), as having been "dead through your trespasses and sins," (Ch. 2:1), and as having been the "children of wrath even as the rest," Ch. 2:3. Such language scarcely comports with an address to those whom the Apostle had not reason to believe to be converted persons.

The epistles to the Thessalonians, to which Faber also refers, are even more distinctly against him. For, here, we have not simply to infer what were the feelings which led to the expressions used by the Apostle; but he himself tells us of the fact that he knew their election, and assigns the reasons of his belief. These are not because they enjoyed the outward privileges of the church; but because of their work of faith and labors of love, and patience of hope, and because the gospel came not to them in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance.

As to the first Epistle of Peter it may be said.

(a) That the elect spoken of are "sojourners of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia." This at least creates the presumption that they had no especial opportunities of church privileges. This, however, is doubtful.

(b) They are, however, spoken of in chapter 1, verses 3, 4 and 5, as begotten . . . "unto a living hope, . . . unto an inheritance . . . reserved in heaven for you, who, by the power of God, are guarded through faith unto a salvation." Again, they are spoken of, verses 7 and 8, as loving Christ, as believing in him and rejoicing with joy unspeakable.

4. Yet, again, three passages are adduced in which a whole church as such is styled elect, and it is argued thence that this is the Scriptural meaning of election. These passages are, 1 Pet. 5:13, "She that is in Babylon elect together with you saluteth you." 2 John, 1st verse, "The elder unto the elect lady and her children," and verse 13, "The children of thine elect sister salute thee."

(1.) Of these passages it may be said that the application of any of them to a church is doubtful. This is evident from any English version of all but the first, and the literal rendering of that is, "The, from or in Babylon, that is elected with you, saluteth you." It would be bad to form a theory upon such doubtful passages.

(2.) Admitting these, however, to have the meaning asserted, and that an elect church would be spoken of as such only with reference to the privileges thus conferred upon its members; it does not follow that this is the only sense which election can have. It must be shown not only that there is such an election, but that nothing else is spoken of under that name before this theory can be established as the only election taught. The truth is, that the general nature of the terms, elect, choose, etc., makes it practicable to have several kinds of election, and the nature of the election has to be decided by those declarations of its character and purpose which accompany it.

(3.) Under any view of Election, save that of Nationalism, it would be perfectly appropriate to apply the word elect to the body as such which is supposed to be composed only of elect members. Thus we often speak of Congress, or of a State Legislature as the assembled wisdom of the State or Country, because such is hypothetically its character; it being supposed to be composed of men who represent by their wisdom that of their constituents. So the church may be spoken of as elect, because composed of those supposed from the best sources of knowledge to be the elect of God.

5. The fifth argument is from the parables of the labourers in the vineyard, Matt. 20:1-16, and the marriage of the King's son, Matt. 22:2-14.

"These," says Faber, "contain the passages where the term Elect or Chosen first occurs and in these parables the Chosen or the Elect are all those who so far obey the call of the gospel as to enter the pale of the visible Christian Church." And in order to show that they are not secure there from destruction, the case of the man without the wedding garment is mentioned.

It may be replied, as to the first of these parables, that Faber does not point out any indication of such loss of any persons in the churches, as is implied in this parable. The parable is merely instructive as to the fact of God's sovereignty, and as to his bestowment of blessings on whom he will. The phrase is added, "many be called but few chosen," which is the key to the parable, and yet in no wise bears upon the subject under discussion, save to show that there are two classes, the called and the elect, and that the first comprises many, the latter few; facts which oppose the theory of the author, who claims that the elect are not the few that are saved, but are the same as the many who are called to the external privileges of God's truth.

The second parable is even more distinctly against him. In it there are three classes: the first, those who are called, and pay no attention to the invitation to the feast; the second, those who enter to partake of it, who may be regarded as the ones gathered here on earth into earthly churches; the third, the class marked by the separation from among them of the one who had not on a wedding garment, which represents the self-deceived in Christ's earthly churches. Immediately after the order for his destruction is given by the king, it is added, "For many are called, but few chosen." Does not the word chosen here evidently point out those who are the saved, as distinguished from those who are outwardly privileged, either as the outwardly called who refuse, or the called who enter the church and enjoy its privileges? If so, the author's view of Election is false.

These are the only arguments, that can properly be so called that are advanced in favor of this theory, and the above statements fully show that the Scriptures nowhere teach the doctrine of Election as thus set forth. The theory has been examined more at length than its own merits deserve, partly, because it is not so generally known, but more especially, because it has the sanction of a man of known ability and scholarship though of admitted fanciful and unsound judgement.

Just now, Iconoclast said:

Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader

 

pt1

ABSTRACT OF SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY.

CHAPTER XXIX.

ELECTION.

THE words Elect, Election, Foreordination, Chosen, Foreknow, and Foreknowledge occur so frequently in Scripture, that it is allowed by all that the Scriptures teach a doctrine of Election of some kind. The chief controversy is as to what that doctrine is.

Several theories have been presented as descriptive of the instructions of the Scriptures.

I. First there is the theory set forth by the celebrated John Locke in his Commentary and Paraphrase of the Epistles of Paul. It has been called the theory of Nationalism. According to this, Election consists "in the choice of certain whole nations into the pale of the visible Church Catholic, which choice, however, relates purely to their privileged condition in this world extending not to their collective eternal state in another world." The cause of this election is: "That same absolute good pleasure of God, which, through the exercise of his sovereign power, led him to choose the posterity of Jacob, rather than that of Esau, that, upon earth, they should become his peculiar people and be made the depositaries and preservers of the true religion." ["Faber's Primitive Election," p. 22.]

The objections to this theory are evident, and may be briefly stated.

I. That the election spoken of in the New Testament is all election of persons within a nation, and not of the nation itself. A distinction is made between the Jewish nation, and the remnant of them according to the election of grace. Rom. 11:5. It is also said in verse 7: "That which Israel seeketh for that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened."

Mr. Locke attempts to remove this difficulty by supposing that the Israel here spoken of is the whole nation before the loss of the ten tribes, and that the remnant is all of the rest that remained Jews at the time Paul wrote. But, that the present nation was the Israel referred to Paul himself shows by applying to it, in Romans 10:21, the title of Israel. "But as to Israel," he saith, "All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gain-saying people." The Israel to whom Isaiah, who is here referred to, went, was Judah; his prophecies were but seldom made to the Ten Tribes.

2. A distinction is also made between persons in the same nation; the elect being separated from others, as in Matt. 24:22-24, where fearful calamities are foretold, and it is said, that prophets shall arise, etc., and that if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect.

The parallel passage is in Mark 13: 20-22.

3. Against this theory may also be quoted such passages as show that the called, and the elect are not identical, as:

Matt. 22:14. "Many are called, but few chosen."

II. A modification of this theory has been made or rather another one has been suggested so similar that the idea has evidently been caught from that of Locke. It is given by George Stanley Faber in his work on "The Primitive Doctrine of Election." It may be called the theory of Church Election, or of External Church privileges. Mr. Faber states it as follows: "The idea is that of an Election of individuals into the pale of the visible church, with God's moral purpose that through faith and holiness they should attain everlasting life; but yet with a moral possibility of their abusing their privileges even to their own final destruction."

1. It is argued in favor of this, that "we never find one particular set of Christians addressed as being especially elect to the exclusion of all other Christians, who, together with the unconverted world at large, are thence exhibited as reprobates. But we constantly find that all the members of the local church addressed are collectively saluted as being in God's purpose and design elected through holiness to glory."

In reply it may be remarked:

(1.) That this argument proceeds upon the erroneous supposition that there were persons called Christians in Apostolic times who did not actually profess to be converted persons, and therefore were not properly to be regarded as such.

Every argument in favor of a converted church membership is an argument against this supposition, and, therefore, against this theory.

(2.) Or it proceeds upon a second erroneous supposition, namely, that the Apostles undertook to pronounce infallibly upon the spiritual condition of those to whom they wrote. On the contrary, proceeding upon the rule, "By their fruits ye shall know them," they, in the judgement of charity, spoke of those to whom they wrote as though they were actually Christians, because professedly such, and maintaining outwardly the life of such. Thus they are called "holy," in like manner as they are called "elect," and are said to be "holy and without blemish before him in love," (Eph. 1:4;) and to have redemption, and the forgiveness of trespasses, v. 7; and to have obtained an inheritance, of which the sealing of the Spirit was an earnest.

2. In favor of this view, it is asserted that the Apostle teaches us in Rom. 9:6-26, that the terms election and elect are used in the same sense in which they are used in the Old Testament.

To this it may be replied:

(1.) That if true it favors the theory of Nationalism rather than this.

(2.) That the Apostle himself distinguishes between the extent of the election, which had before existed, and that which was now manifested. "They are not all Israel who are of Israel." "Neither because they are Abraham's seed are they all children," (Rom. 9:7); thus indicating that the limitation had been formerly made according to the national extent, but that now a segregation is made from this. The two elections, therefore, differ in extent.

(3.) But the difference is also in kind. This is what affects this theory most closely. Even under the old election, not all the children, but simply the one of the promise is the one in whom the election exists. Under the new, the same thing is true, the election is not of all to whom the external privileges connected with it belong, but of those only who are partakers of the promise. In this respect they are similar, and so Paul indicates: "The children of the promise are reckoned for a seed." Rom. 9:8. But formerly the promise was of Isaac, wherefore it was said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Rom. 9:7. And that promise was of the land of Canaan, which was granted actually to all of his descendants as a class. So also now, the children of the promise are the elect; but they are not all to whom the external privileges of hearing the gospel, or even of entering the church of Christ, are given, for unto these as a class this promise is not fulfilled; but, simply, to those who truly embrace the gospel, and by faith in Jesus are vitally united to him. It is to this class only that the election refers. There is, therefore, a difference in kind indicated by the Apostle.

3. It is said that the addresses to the churches contained in the letters of the Apostles, indicate the election of the whole churches, and that, consequently, election must be merely to external church privileges. Dr. Faber does not cite the passages at length, because he thinks that any attentive reader, by attending to them, will readily perceive their palpably universalizing tendency. But he adduces as proof the beginnings of Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and 1 Peter.

(1.) Of these, singular to say, none speak of election in the addresses to the churches, except Ephesians, the two Thessalonians and 1 Peter. But the others all speak of the saints and of a calling to sanctification. The truth is, that, as they professed to be God's children, the Apostle, in the judgement of charity, speaks of them as such, and this is shown by the language of all the salutations as well as of the epistles at large.

(2.) The language in Ephesians is used as inclusive, not only of those to whom he wrote, but of himself also. It evidently is intended to refer to him and them, as having like hopes, and being partakers of like promises. That, at least, it is not intended to refer to the mere privilege of church membership, is evident from the fact that the apostle speaks of these persons as "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," Ch. 1:13. They are spoken of as having been "quickened," (Ch. 2:1), as having been "dead through your trespasses and sins," (Ch. 2:1), and as having been the "children of wrath even as the rest," Ch. 2:3. Such language scarcely comports with an address to those whom the Apostle had not reason to believe to be converted persons.

The epistles to the Thessalonians, to which Faber also refers, are even more distinctly against him. For, here, we have not simply to infer what were the feelings which led to the expressions used by the Apostle; but he himself tells us of the fact that he knew their election, and assigns the reasons of his belief. These are not because they enjoyed the outward privileges of the church; but because of their work of faith and labors of love, and patience of hope, and because the gospel came not to them in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance.

As to the first Epistle of Peter it may be said.

(a) That the elect spoken of are "sojourners of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia." This at least creates the presumption that they had no especial opportunities of church privileges. This, however, is doubtful.

(b) They are, however, spoken of in chapter 1, verses 3, 4 and 5, as begotten . . . "unto a living hope, . . . unto an inheritance . . . reserved in heaven for you, who, by the power of God, are guarded through faith unto a salvation." Again, they are spoken of, verses 7 and 8, as loving Christ, as believing in him and rejoicing with joy unspeakable.

4. Yet, again, three passages are adduced in which a whole church as such is styled elect, and it is argued thence that this is the Scriptural meaning of election. These passages are, 1 Pet. 5:13, "She that is in Babylon elect together with you saluteth you." 2 John, 1st verse, "The elder unto the elect lady and her children," and verse 13, "The children of thine elect sister salute thee."

(1.) Of these passages it may be said that the application of any of them to a church is doubtful. This is evident from any English version of all but the first, and the literal rendering of that is, "The, from or in Babylon, that is elected with you, saluteth you." It would be bad to form a theory upon such doubtful passages.

(2.) Admitting these, however, to have the meaning asserted, and that an elect church would be spoken of as such only with reference to the privileges thus conferred upon its members; it does not follow that this is the only sense which election can have. It must be shown not only that there is such an election, but that nothing else is spoken of under that name before this theory can be established as the only election taught. The truth is, that the general nature of the terms, elect, choose, etc., makes it practicable to have several kinds of election, and the nature of the election has to be decided by those declarations of its character and purpose which accompany it.

(3.) Under any view of Election, save that of Nationalism, it would be perfectly appropriate to apply the word elect to the body as such which is supposed to be composed only of elect members. Thus we often speak of Congress, or of a State Legislature as the assembled wisdom of the State or Country, because such is hypothetically its character; it being supposed to be composed of men who represent by their wisdom that of their constituents. So the church may be spoken of as elect, because composed of those supposed from the best sources of knowledge to be the elect of God.

5. The fifth argument is from the parables of the labourers in the vineyard, Matt. 20:1-16, and the marriage of the King's son, Matt. 22:2-14.

"These," says Faber, "contain the passages where the term Elect or Chosen first occurs and in these parables the Chosen or the Elect are all those who so far obey the call of the gospel as to enter the pale of the visible Christian Church." And in order to show that they are not secure there from destruction, the case of the man without the wedding garment is mentioned.

It may be replied, as to the first of these parables, that Faber does not point out any indication of such loss of any persons in the churches, as is implied in this parable. The parable is merely instructive as to the fact of God's sovereignty, and as to his bestowment of blessings on whom he will. The phrase is added, "many be called but few chosen," which is the key to the parable, and yet in no wise bears upon the subject under discussion, save to show that there are two classes, the called and the elect, and that the first comprises many, the latter few; facts which oppose the theory of the author, who claims that the elect are not the few that are saved, but are the same as the many who are called to the external privileges of God's truth.

The second parable is even more distinctly against him. In it there are three classes: the first, those who are called, and pay no attention to the invitation to the feast; the second, those who enter to partake of it, who may be regarded as the ones gathered here on earth into earthly churches; the third, the class marked by the separation from among them of the one who had not on a wedding garment, which represents the self-deceived in Christ's earthly churches. Immediately after the order for his destruction is given by the king, it is added, "For many are called, but few chosen." Does not the word chosen here evidently point out those who are the saved, as distinguished from those who are outwardly privileged, either as the outwardly called who refuse, or the called who enter the church and enjoy its privileges? If so, the author's view of Election is false.

These are the only arguments, that can properly be so called that are advanced in favor of this theory, and the above statements fully show that the Scriptures nowhere teach the doctrine of Election as thus set forth. The theory has been examined more at length than its own merits deserve, partly, because it is not so generally known, but more especially, because it has the sanction of a man of known ability and scholarship though of admitted fanciful and unsound judgement.

pt2

This theory of election, therefore, asserts that:

(1.) The salvation of individuals is the result of their own choice and perseverance.

(2.) The election made by God is simply an election of a class.

(3.) So far as the election of individuals took place in eternity, it was only as God foresaw what would be the result of the election of a class.

(4.) That it is an election made upon condition that they would accept the offer of the gospel.

IV. As this theory is just the opposite in every respect of the Calvinistic theory of personal, unconditional, and eternal Election, it is better to put the two in direct contrast, and to proceed to the proof that the Scriptures teach the latter, and not the former.

The latter theory is that God (who and not man is the one who chooses or elects), of his own purpose (in accordance with his will, and not from any obligation to man, nor because of any will of man), has from Eternity (the period of God's action, not in time in which man acts), determined to save (not has actually saved, but simply determined so to do), [and to save (not to confer gospel or church privileges upon),] a definite number of mankind (not the whole race, nor indefinitely merely some of them, nor indefinitely a certain proportionate part; but a definite number), as individuals (not the whole or a part of the race, nor of a nation, nor of a church, nor of a class, as of believers or the pious; but individuals), not for or because of any merit or work of theirs, nor of any value to him of them (not for their good works, nor their holiness, nor excellence, nor their faith, nor their spiritual sanctification, although the choice is to a salvation attained through faith and sanctification; nor their value to him, though their salvation tends greatly to the manifested glory of his grace); but of his own good pleasure (simply because he was pleased so to choose).

This theory, therefore, teaches that election is:

(1.) An act of God, and not the result of the choice of the elect.

(2.) That this choice is one of individuals, and not of classes.

(3.) That it was made without respect to the action of the persons elected.

(4.) By the good pleasure of God.

(5.) According to an eternal purpose.

(6.) That it is an election to salvation and not to outward privileges.

To the Scriptures alone must we look for the truth upon this subject.

Upon opening them we find that the words Election and Elect are used in various senses.

1. They signify a choice to office whether by man or God.

Luke 6:13. Christ's choice of the twelve Apostles.

Acts 1:21-26. The selection of an Apostle in the place of Judas.

Acts 9:15. Saul is called a chosen vessel.

1 Pet. 2:6-8. Christ is spoken of as the corner-stone, elect, precious that is laid in Zion.

2. The choice of Israel to their peculiar national privilege of being the chosen or separated people of God; as in Acts 13:17. "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers."

3. It is once used for a choice made of' salvation by an individual.

Luke 10:42. "Mary hath chosen the good part which shall not be taken away from her."

4. In a large majority of cases it has reference to the choice to salvation, either in the purpose or act of choice by God.

It is to the doctrine taught in this last class of passages that our inquiries are to be turned.

(1.) Election is an act of God, and not the result of the choice of the Elect.

This is not now an inquiry into the reason of Election; but simply into the agent. Does God choose the elect, whether by his own purpose, or because he foresees that they will believe, or for any other reason? Is election an act of God?

The fact on this point would appear more clearly if we were to exchange the common word choice or chosen with the equivalent word elect.

The following passages are sufficient, though the examples are far more numerous.

John 13:18. "I know whom I have chosen."

John 15:16. "Ye did not choose me, but I chose you" (not to their offices as apostle, but), "that ye should go and hear fruit."

Rom. 8:33. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's chosen ones?"

Rom. 9:15. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."

Eph. 1:4. "Even as he chose us in him."

Eph. 1:11. "Having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

2 Thess. 2:13. "God chose you from the beginning unto salvation."

2. This choice is one of individuals and not of classes.

This position needs to be explained. It is not denied that the Elect are to be true believers, and that true believers are the Elect. The character of the Elect does not, therefore, enter into this question. The issue is simply, does God choose all who shall believe, and are they, as such, his elect? or, does he choose his elect, and will they, as such, believe? Is belief the result of God's election, or is God's election the result of man's faith?

Acts 13:48. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." This is a historical statement made subsequent to the event, not by man's knowledge but by inspiration.

Eph. 1:4, 5. "Even as he chose us in him, . . . having foreordained us unto adoption as sons."

2 Thess. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks to God alway for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Here the choice is made to salvation, and the means to salvation, sanctification and faith, are indicated; no prerequisite or means being stated as to Election. It is not as believers that they are elected; but as elected, that they are saved.

Rom. 8:29. "Whom he foreknew he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son." The foreknowledge here is of persons, not of personal acts, not of those whose faith he foreknew, nor, as would be essential to their theory, is it of the class of believers as such. The Arminian theory would require the substitution of the words "as believers" or "you as believers" instead of those which are used.

It is not, therefore, to the class of believers, but to individuals that election refers. But, it may be asked, does it not refer to them in that character? Did not God choose those whose faith he for-saw?

(3.) The third point then to be proved is, that it was not because of any act or merit of theirs, but irrespective of anything but his own good pleasure, that this Election was made.

This is merely a negative form of the same fact stated by the next point affirmatively. It is better, therefore, to unite this with the succeeding one, which is,

(4.) That the election is made through the mere good pleasure of God.

Some of the passages simply affirm a choice by God's Sovereign will; others, while asserting this, also deny merit in those elected; and still others represent the fact of sovereignty by asserting a choice of such persons as would not ordinarily be chosen. The following are some of the passages which prove these points.

(a.) Such as simply assert sovereign will. Such are Matt. 24:40-41 and Luke 17:33-36. These declare the sovereign choice of God by showing such choice exercised as to persons in the same situation, so that the one shall be taken and the other left; "two men on one bed;" "two women grinding at the mill;" "two men shall be in the field;" one of each shall be taken and the other left.

John 3:3-8. Regeneration is here spoken of as essential to entrance into the kingdom of God. This precedes any act on which election is said by any to depend. Yet the sovereignty of God in this is declared in verse 8. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knoweth not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

John 6:37, 39, 44, 64, 65. "All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me. . . . This is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which be hath given me I should lose nothing. . . . No man can come to me except the Father which sent me draw him. . . . Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, for this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father."

John 15:16. "Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit." The object to be attained cannot be the cause.

John 17:2. "As thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that whatsoever thou hast given him to them he should give eternal life." See also verses 6-12.

Acts 22:14. Ananias says to Paul, "The God of our fathers hath appointed thee to know his will."

Eph. 1:5. In the fourth verse having referred to God's choice of us before the foundation of the world, he says in this fifth, "Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace." In verse 11 we are said to be predestinated to our inheritance "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

James 1:18. "Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth."

(b.) Such as deny merit in the persons elected as well as assert the sovereign choice of God.

Ezek. 36:32. In this passage, after describing the blessings connected with the new dispensation, and the gift of the Spirit and the new heart which he would give them--gifts which the Calvinistic theory regards as the result of election; but which the Arminian maintains to be its cause, God adds, "Not for your sakes do I this, saith the LORD GOD, be it known unto you; be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel."

John 1:11-18. "He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But, as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name; which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

In Rom. 9:11-16. Election is illustrated by the case of the twins; "the children being not yet born, neither having done anything, good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. . . . So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."

Rom. 11:5-6. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace."

(c.) Such as so describe the persons chosen as to imply this.

Matt. 11:25, 26. "At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding and didst reveal them unto babes; yea Father, for so it was well pleasing in thy sight."

Luke 4:25-27. Christ illustrates this sovereignty of God by mentioning that many widows had been in Israel, yet had only a heathen widow been blessed; and again many lepers, and yet only a heathen leper cured. "Of a truth I say unto you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah . . . and unto none of them was Elijah sent, but only to Sarephath in the land of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian."

Acts 26:12-23. Paul's description of his personal condition at his conversion shows that God chose him not for his merits but from his own good pleasure.

1 Cor. 1:26-30. "For behold your calling, brethren, how that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called; but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea, and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are, that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, etc."

Gal. 1:15, 16. Paul says, "When it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach, etc."

Ephesians 2:1-13. The description of the condition of those who were dead in trespasses and sins, and in that state were quickened, proves that the quickening and salvation was due to no merit of their own.

The texts thus exhibited under these three classes prove conclusively that not on account of their own merits, but because of the good pleasure of God, does he choose men. They have been presented at some length, because this is after all the point upon which all that is important in this controversy turns. For, although other matters are equally essential to the doctrine, the whole opposition arises from an unwillingness on the part of man to recognize the sovereignty of God, and to ascribe salvation entirely to grace. This proof, however, has been by no means exhausted, the attempt having been to select some only of the numerous passages, and mainly such as from their conciseness allow of presentation in full. Let the Scriptures be read with reference to this doctrine and every passage marked which indicates God's dealing with men as an absolute sovereign, and also every declaration which ascribes Election or the fruits of it to his choice and not to the will or acts of men, and every illustration afforded that this is God's usual method, and it will appear that scarcely any book of Scripture will fail to furnish testimony to the fact that in the acts of grace, no less than those of providence, God "doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth." Dan. 4:3-5.

(5.) Another important fact to be shown is the eternity of Election in opposition to the idea that it was in time. The proof on this point is two-fold. There are (a) those passages which show that the Election took place before existence in this world or before the world began, and (b) those which actually declare that it was eternal. Between the two classes of passages there is really, however, very little difference, as, from the nature of the case, what took place before time must have been in Eternity, and besides, the object of proof of an eternal Election is simply to show that it was not dependent on human action, but simply on the will of God.

(a) Those which show that the election took place before man's existence, or before the world began.

Jer. 1:5. "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee."

Matt. 25:34. "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Eph. 1:4. "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world."

2 Thess. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks to God alway for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

2 Tim. 1:9. "Who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal."

Compare also the language used as to the names written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 13:8. "And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him (that is the beast), every one whose name hath not been written in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world."

Rev. 17:8. "And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast how that he was, and is not, and shall come."

Referring to the adherents of the Lamb as persons "with him," it is said in verse 14, "They . . . that are with him called and chosen and faithful."

Rev. 21:27. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

(b) The passages which distinctly declare that this, which may be thus inferred to have been an eternal Election, is really such.

1 Cor. 2:7. "Even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory."

Eph. 3:11. "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

6. It remains to be proved that this Election is one to salvation, and not to mere external privileges.

Jeremiah 31:31-34:

Verse 31. Tells of a day when a new covenant shall be made.

Verse 32. Says that this shall not be like that made with their fathers (not one of external privileges).

Verse 33. But of this sort, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Verse 34. "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more."

Speaking again of the restoration of Israel, the same prophet adds a like passage in Chap. 32:37-40. A similar passage is to be found in Ezekiel 36:24-27.

John 10:16. "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and they shall become one flock, one shepherd."

John 10:26. "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep."

Verse 27. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

Rom. 8:28-30. "We know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose." Paul now proceeds to tell who these are. "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." This passage shows that foreknowledge, foreordination to holiness, calling, justification, and a state of glory are inseparably connected, and hence that the election, from which they proceed, is to salvation.

Eph. 1:4-9. This passage speaks of our being chosen before the foundation of the world, "that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him."

2 Thess. 2:13. After referring to others who were to have the same outward privileges, but upon whom God would send strong delusion, the Apostle says in this verse, "For we are bound to give thanks to God alway for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation," &c.

1 Peter 6:10. "The God of all grace who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ," &c. Here the Apostle is speaking of that effectual calling, which is the result of Election, and tells us that it is a call unto eternal glory.

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5 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I am puzzled how some can oppose the doctrine of God's election. Here are many Baptists who held and taught these truths. Enjoy the scriptures they list for us.

JL Dagg...Manual of Theology;

THE SON OF GOD GAVE HIS LIFE TO REDEEM THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER IN THE COVENANT OF GRACE.[66]

The Scriptures teach that the Son of God, in coming into the world and laying down his life, had the salvation of a peculiar people in view: “Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.”[67] “The good Shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.”[68] “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church.”[69] The Scriptures also teach that the expectation of the Redeemer will be fully realized, and that not one of all whom the Father gave him will fail to be saved: “He shall see his seed. He shall see of the travail of his soul and be satisfied.”[70] “All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”[71] “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am.”[72]

10 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

I am puzzled how some can oppose the doctrine of God's election. Here are many Baptists who held and taught these truths. Enjoy the scriptures they list for us.

SECTION I.–ELECTION.

ALL WHO WILL FINALLY BE SAVED, WERE CHOSEN TO SALVATION BY GOD THE FATHER, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, AND GIVEN TO JESUS CHRIST IN THE COVENANT OF GRACE.[16]

The doctrine of election encounters strong opposition in the hearts of men, and it is therefore necessary to examine thoroughly its claim to our belief. As it relates to an act of the divine mind, no proof of its truth can be equal to the testimony of the Scriptures. Let us receive their teachings on the subject without hesitation or distrust; and let us require every preconceived opinion of ours, and all our carnal reasonings, to bow before the authority of God’s holy word.

The Scriptures clearly teach, that God has an elect or chosen people. “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect.”[17] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.[18] “Shall not God avenge his own elect.”[19] “Ye are a chosen generation.”[20] “God hath chosen you to salvation.”[21] “According as he hath chosen us in Christ.”[22] Whatever may have been our prejudices against the doctrine of election as held and taught by some ministers of religion, it is undeniable, that, in some sense, the doctrine is found in the Bible; and we cannot reject it, without rejecting that inspired book. We are bound by the authority of God, to receive the doctrine; and nothing remains, but that we should make an honest effort to understand it, just as it is taught in the sacred volume.

The Scriptures teach expressly, that God’s people are chosen to salvation. “Beloved, we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, because he hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.”[23] Some have been chosen by God[24] to peculiar offices; as Paul was a chosen vessel, to bear the name of Christ to the Gentiles, and David was chosen to be the King of Israel. The whole nation of Israel was chosen out of all nations to be a peculiar people to the Lord: but it is very clear that the eternal salvation of every Israelite was not secured by this national election; for to some of them Christ said, “Ye shall die in your sins; and whither I go ye cannot come.”[25] The election to salvation is shown by the words of Paul in Rom. ix. 6, to be different from this national election: “They are not all Israel that are of Israel.” “There is a remnant according to the election of grace.”[26] The national election comprehended all Israel, according to the flesh: but the election of grace included those only who will finally be saved. It is not a choice merely to the means of salvation, for these were granted to all the nation of Israel: but it was a choice to salvation itself, and therefore respected the “remnant,” and not the whole nation.

The Scriptures plainly teach that the election of grace is from eternity. “God hath, from the beginning, chosen you to salvation.”[27] “According as he hath chosen us in him from the foundation of the world.”[28] “According to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”[29] Election is a part of God’s eternal purpose. Had it been his purpose to save all the human race, there would have been no elect from among men; no peculiar people, no redeemed out of every nation. But his purpose to save did not include all the race; and therefore, on some principle yet to be inquired into, some of the race have been selected, who will receive the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. The eternity of God’s election ought not to excite in our hearts any objection against it. If, in the final judgment, God will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, whatever he will then do in righteousness, it was right for him to purpose to do from all eternity. In his final sentence, all his preceding dispensations toward the children of men, and all their actions under these dispensations, will be carefully reviewed, and the final doom of every one will be pronounced in righteousness. All that will then be present to the divine mind, was before it from all eternity; and what God will then do, he purposed to do from the beginning; and the reasons for which he will do it, are the reasons for which he purposed to do it. There can be no wrong in the purpose, if it does not exist in the execution. If God can fully justify at the last day, before the assembled universe, all his dispensations toward the children of men; all these dispensations must be right, and the purpose of them from eternity must have been right: and if a division of the human race can then be righteously made, that division was righteously made in the purpose of God; and consequently God’s election was made in righteousness.

The Scriptures teach that election is of grace, and not of works. “Not of works, lest any man should boast;”[30] and if it be of works, then grace is no more grace.[31] The subject is illustrated by the case of Jacob and Esau, of whom Jacob was chosen before the children had done either good or evil; and in applying this illustration, Paul says: “That the purpose of God according to election might stand; not of works, but of him that calleth.”[32] In the last day, God will discriminate between the righteous and the wicked, according to their works: and it was the eternal purpose of God, that this discrimination should then be made on that ground; but the purpose of God includes an earlier discrimination made in effectual calling; whence we read of those who are “the called according to his purpose.”[33] This discrimination, made at the time of calling, is not according to men’s works, for it is expressly said, “who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus, before the world began;”[34] Calling is a blessing of grace, not conferred for previous works, nor according to previous works. Why is this benefit bestowed? The answer is, “not of works, but of him that calleth.”[35] “Not of him that willeth, or of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.”[36] “It is God that worketh in us to will and to do, of his good pleasure.”[37] The first actual separation of God’s people from the rest of mankind, is made when they are called out of darkness into his marvellouslight; and this calling is not according to men’s works, but according to the good pleasure of God. A discrimination is then made, for reasons wholly unknown to mortals; not according to the works of men, but on a ground which infinite wisdom approves. The reason of the procedure is laid deep in the counsels of the divine mind; and we are compelled to say respecting it, “How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”[38] This actual separation of God’s people from the rest of mankind, made in their effectual calling, is like everything which he does, the fulfilment of his eternal purpose. “He worketh all things after the counsel of his will;”[39] and “known unto him are all his works from the beginning.”[40] The purpose to effect this first actual discrimination, is God’s election; and the ground of the discrimination when it actually takes place, is nothing different from that of the purpose to discriminate; that is, it is the ground of election. The discrimination, when actually made, is approved by the wisdom of God; and all the consequences of it will be approved in the last day, and throughout all coming eternity; and therefore the election, or purpose to discriminate, was approved by infinite wisdom, in the counsels of eternity past. When we object to the act, or the purpose, we presume to be wiser than God.

From the views which have been presented, it necessarily follows, that election is not on the ground of foreseen faith or obedience. On this point, the teachings of Scripture are clear. They are chosen not because of their holiness, but that they may be holy;[41] not because of their obedience, but unto obedience.[42] As the discrimination made in effectual calling is God’s work, the antecedent to all holiness, faith, or acceptable obedience; the purpose to discriminate could not be on the ground of acts foreseen, which do not exist as a consideration for the execution of the purpose. The discriminating grace which God bestows, is not on the ground of faith and obedience previously existing, but for a reason known only to God himself. This unrevealed reason, and not foreseen faith and obedience, is the ground of election.

The Scriptures teach that election is according to the foreknowledge of God.[43] We are, however, not to understand the foreknowledge here mentioned, to be foreknowledge of faith or good works. Faith and good works do not exist, before the grace consequent on election begins to be bestowed; and therefore a foresight of them is impossible. Moreover, the objects of this divine foreknowledge are the persons of the elect, and not their faith or good works. “Whom he foreknow, them he also did predestinate.”[44] In this foreknowledge of persons, according to the Scripture use of terms, a peculiar regard to them is implied. It is said, “Hath God cast away his people, whom he foreknew.”[45] If simple knowledge, without any peculiar regard, were all that is here implied, it would be equally true that God foreknew the heathen nations, as well as the nation of Israel.

This case of national election may serve also to illustrate the ground of election to salvation. God’s choice of the Hebrew nation arose from a peculiar regard to them, not founded on their superiority to other nations,[46] but on his own sovereign pleasure. He loved them, because he would love them. So the election of grace is according to God’s foreknowledge of his people; a foreknowledge implying a peculiar regard not founded on any superiority in the objects of it, but arising from the sovereign pleasure of God.

Election is ascribed to God the Father, redemption to God the Son, and sanctification to God the Holy spirit: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.”[47] The Father, as sustaining the authority of the Godhead, is represented as giving the elect to Christ in the covenant of grace: “Thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.”[48]

The choice of them was with reference to Christ, and that they might be given to him, and rendered accepted in him. Hence they are said to be “chosen in Christ.”[49] The election, or setting of them apart to salvation, is, in Jude, attributed to God the Father, by the use of the word sanctify, which signifies to set apart: “Sanctified by God the Father.” The next clause of this verse, “preserved in Christ Jesus,” may denote that a special divine care is exercised over the elect, because of their covenant relation to Christ, even before their being called by the Holy Spirit. “Preserved in Christ Jesus, and called.”

Those who are not included in the election of grace, are called, in Scripture, “the rest,”[50] and vessels of wrath.”[51] Why they are not included, we are as unable to explain as why the others are included; and we are therefore compelled to refer the matter to the sovereignty of God, who, beyond all doubt, acts herein most wisely and righteously, though he has not explained to us the reasons of his procedure. His absolute sovereignty, is the discrimination which he makes, is expressed by Paul in these words: “He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy; and whom he will he hardeneth.”[52] The natural tendency of human depravity is such, that the heart grows harder under the general mercies which God bestows, unless he superadds to all the other benefits which he confers, the renewing grace of the Holy Spirit, by which the heart is changed. This renewing grace he gives or withholds at his sovereign pleasure. This sovereignty, in so bestowing mercy as to soften the hard heart, is unquestionably taught by the words just quoted, however we may interpret the phrase “he hardeneth.” It is not necessary to understand these words as implying a positive act of God, exerted for the purpose of producing hardness of heart, and directed to this end. When Paul speaks of the vessels of mercy, he says that God hath “afore prepared” them for glory; but when he speaks of the vessels of wrath, as fitted for destruction, he does not say that God has fitted them for this end.[53] As the potter, out of the same mass, makes one vessel to honor and another to dishonor;[54] so God, out of the same mass of mankind, prepares some for glory, as vessels of mercy; while others, whatever benefits abuse the mercies which he bestows, and, growing harder by the influence of their natural depravity, are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

Divines have used the term “reprobate” as equivalent to “non-elect;” but this is not the Scripture use of the term. Paul says, “Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?[55] Here all are regarded as reprobates in whom Christ does not dwell by faith; and, of consequence, the elect themselves are reprobates so long as they remain in unbelief. Reprobation, as a positive act of God, is no other than the condemnation under which all unbelievers lie.

From a state of condemnation, God, according to his purpose in election, delivers some by his renewing grace, and this is no injury or disadvantage done to the rest.

The doctrine of election is generally opposed by unrenewed men: and even in the minds of those whose hearts have been renewed by grace, such objections to it often arise as to prevent the cordial reception of it. The most common of these objections is would be proper here to consider.

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4 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

I am puzzled how some can oppose the doctrine of God's election. Here are many Baptists who held and taught these truths. Enjoy the scriptures they list for us.

Nobody here is opposed to the doctrine of election just the zombie election Calvin taught (and had anyone put to death that opposed).

 

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5 hours ago, SureWord said:

Nobody here is opposed to the doctrine of election just the zombie election Calvin taught (and had anyone put to death that opposed).

 

I am glad to hear that people believe this biblical teaching.

Some seem to dislike that God is God

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Really? More long diatribes from "scholars" on what the Bible teaches? I thought the Bible was supposed to be searched daily for the answers, not some mans views of theology. Whew...thanks for clearing this up for me Iconoclast! 

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10 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Really? More long diatribes from "scholars" on what the Bible teaches? I thought the Bible was supposed to be searched daily for the answers, not some mans views of theology. Whew...thanks for clearing this up for me Iconoclast! 

i did not mean to confuse you Tony.

The numbers in the middle of the article...are BIBLE VERSES.

i AM SURE YOU LOOKED THEM UP,LOL

SO IF YOU AS A MAN POST YOUR VIEW, WE SHOULD NOT CONSIDER IT???

YOU MAKE NO SENSE HERE.

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10 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The doctrine of election is clearly a Biblical doctrine.  However, the question of dispute is how God's Holy Word actually defines the Biblical doctrine of election.  Among Bible students there are various systems of belief ("theories") concerning how God's Holy Word actually defines this Biblical doctrine.  Now, since these various systems of belief ("theories") contradict each other, it is certain that they all cannot represent the true Biblical doctrine of election.  

Quote

My primary dispute (although not my only dispute) with the Calvinistic system of belief concerning the doctrine of election is the Calvinistic teaching that the Lord our God predetermined for certain sinners to repent and believe by His sovereign will and for other sinners to have no ability or possibility to repent and believe.  I would contend that the Calvinistic teaching of unconditional predestination/pre-election is Biblically false, for God's Word clearly teaches that our Lord God's work of predestination/pre-election is conditioned upon our Lord God's foreknowledge. 

You show you do not understand any aspect of the teaching.

Your wrong view of election and foreknowledge will keep you from seeing the truth.

 

Quote

I would contend that the Calvinistic teaching of irresistible/effectual calling is Biblically false, for God's Word clearly teaches that sinners can and do resist the gracious call of God. 

You now do not understand effectual calling. All men resist the grace of God. What you have posted here are the usual caricatures and false strawmen

The effectual call speaks of God overcoming and drawing the elect to Christ savingly;here

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

Quote

I would contend that the Calvinistic teaching of regeneration life before and unto repentance and faith is Biblically false, for a multitude of passages in God's Word place repentance and faith as the prerequisites to regeneration life.

Again, you do not understand the biblical teaching.

A foolish post such as this, would have the dead bones in EZK 37, coming to life without the work of the Spirit.

You would have Lazarus hopping out Of the grave before being enabled by God./

 

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Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith

1._____ The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )

2._____ By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself, and also apprehendeth an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world, as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed; and also acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come; but the principal acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.
( Acts 24:14; Psalms 27:7-10; Psalms 119:72; 2 Timothy 1:12; John 14:14; Isaiah 66:2; Hebrews 11:13; John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Galatians 2:20; Acts 15:11 )

3._____ This faith, although it be different in degrees, and may be weak or strong, yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers; and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory, growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.
( Hebrews 5:13, 14; Matthew 6:30; Romans 4:19, 20; 2 Peter 1:1; Ephesians 6:16; 1 John 5:4, 5; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Colossians 2:2; Hebrews 12:2 )

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10 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

My primary dispute (although not my only dispute) with the Calvinistic system of belief concerning the doctrine of election is the Calvinistic teaching that the Lord our God predetermined for certain sinners to repent and believe by His sovereign will and for other sinners to have no ability or possibility to repent and believe.  

22 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

You show you do not understand any aspect of the teaching.

Really??  Ok, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will alone, without any consideration of any characteristic in them or any conduct by them, for certain sinners to repent and believe, and thereby to be justified?

Furthermore, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will that all human-kind would be made lost sinners in Adam by Adam's first disobedience?

Finally, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will that any lost sinner whom He has not sovereignly determined to regenerate shall never possess any ability or possibility whatsoever to repent and believe?

Note your own posting:

31 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

According to the Calvinistic system of belief -

Has the Lord God sovereignly willed NOT to call them effectually?
Has the Lord God sovereignly willed that they cannot (have no ability or possibility) come to Christ?
Has the Lord God sovereignly willed that they cannot (have no ability or possibility) be saved?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

i did not mean to confuse you Tony.

The numbers in the middle of the article...are BIBLE VERSES.

i AM SURE YOU LOOKED THEM UP,LOL

SO IF YOU AS A MAN POST YOUR VIEW, WE SHOULD NOT CONSIDER IT???

YOU MAKE NO SENSE HERE.

What? Again...curt statements? How are we to take you seriously? And ALL CAPS as well....wow...my eyes are burning! 😉 LOL  Hope you're doing well, friend. 

Edited by BrotherTony
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13 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

i did not mean to confuse you Tony.

The numbers in the middle of the article...are BIBLE VERSES.

i AM SURE YOU LOOKED THEM UP,LOL

SO IF YOU AS A MAN POST YOUR VIEW, WE SHOULD NOT CONSIDER IT???

YOU MAKE NO SENSE HERE.

Iconoclast, this is rude and uncalled for. If you cannot make your points and arguments without personal attacks and bashing others, try doing as Bambl's mother said; "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Please consider this a warning; OB is a Christian message board, not a platform to be rude and abusive.

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15 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:
Quote

Really??  Ok, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will alone, without any consideration of any characteristic in them or any conduct by them, for certain sinners to repent and believe, and thereby to be justified?

Hello Pastor Scott,

Thank you for these good questions, lets get to it.

God viewed all mankind as fallen and dead in sin. If God did not do anything we would all be sent into second death.

God has an eternal plan before the world was;Rev

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There is nothing in us to commend ourselves to God.

The natural man will not seek God. It is God that seeks and saves sinners granting repentance and faith;Acts11

 

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

Quote

Furthermore, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will that all human-kind would be made lost sinners in Adam by Adam's first disobedience?

God was not kidding at all when He said, dying thou shalt surely die. Mandkind was constitued sinners by Adams original transgression, and they sin all through their life.

 

Quote

Finally, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will that any lost sinner whom He has not sovereignly determined to regenerate shall never possess any ability or possibility whatsoever to repent and believe?

All men everywhere are commanded to repent and believe Acts17

They love sin rather than God. God savingly regenerates all the Father has given to the Son.

Those not elected are passed over, and left to themselves to repent and believe,

The door on the Ark was left open for a long time and the people did not want to enter.

from the 1689;

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Quote

 

Note your own posting:

According to the Calvinistic system of belief -

 

I will stand by what I post, unless biblical correction can improve on it.

 

Quote

Has the Lord God sovereignly willed NOT to call them effectually?

There is a general outward call to all men who hear the word preached.

This is often rejected.

The effectual call is inward by the Spirit giving a new heart that welcomes the truth. Ezk 36:25-27

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

Quote

Has the Lord God sovereignly willed that they cannot (have no ability or possibility) come to Christ?

They are passed over or left, theogians speak of preterition, as highlighted in section4, bolded in green

Quote

Has the Lord God sovereignly willed that they cannot (have no ability or possibility) be saved?

The promise of God is freely offered to all men, and everyone believing will be saved.

Pastor Scott... these are good questions for all of us to consider, even if we are not yet able to come to full agreement at this time.We are brothers because we are covered by the blood of the Cross, not that we totally agree on portions of scripture that might take some searching out, Amen

 

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2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Iconoclast, this is rude and uncalled for. If you cannot make your points and arguments without personal attacks and bashing others, try doing as Bambl's mother said; "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Please consider this a warning; OB is a Christian message board, not a platform to be rude and abusive.

Hello Jim,

Several have set aside quotes from Godly Pastors and teachers calling then heretics and the teaching hogwash.

Do you think this is acceptable?

I quoted a section from JP Boyce, abstract of systematic theology, and it was mocked. It is used by most seminaries and was a foundational statement of the SBC.

The poster suggested I use the bible? the link had over 50 bible verses

 

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On 5/16/2022 at 9:48 AM, BrotherTony said:
Quote

Really? More long diatribes from "scholars" on what the Bible teaches?

Take this "long diatribe" and attempt to answer any portion of it.

 

Quote

I thought the Bible was supposed to be searched daily for the answers,

There are over 50 bible verses in this link, did you attempt to read it at all?


 

Quote

 

not some mans views of theology.

God has given Pastors and teachers to the Church.

They are men, who are called by God, why would you mock them?

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Really??  Ok, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will alone, without any consideration of any characteristic in them or any conduct by them, for certain sinners to repent and believe, and thereby to be justified?

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

God viewed all mankind as fallen and dead in sin. If God did not do anything we would all be sent into second death.

God has an eternal plan before the world was;Rev

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There is nothing in us to commend ourselves to God.

The natural man will not seek God. It is God that seeks and saves sinners granting repentance and faith;Acts11

 

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So, best I can discern, your answer to my question above is -- Yes, what I have presented in my question is that which the Calvinistic system of belief teaches.

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Furthermore, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will that all human-kind would be made lost sinners in Adam by Adam's first disobedience?

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

God was not kidding at all when He said, dying thou shalt surely die. Mandkind was constitued sinners by Adams original transgression, and they sin all through their life.

In addition, within a different thread discussion -- "Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?" -- you posted the following:

23 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Because of Adam’s disobedience, the many were appointed by God to be sinners. They were put down in the category of and constituted to be sinners. (red emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

So, best I can discern, your answer to my above question is -- Yes, the Calvinistic system of belief does indeed teach that because of Adam's disobedience, they were "appointed by God to be sinners," and thereby were constituted sinners in Adam.

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Finally, according to the Calvinistic system of belief did the Lord our God predetermine by His sovereign will that any lost sinner whom He has not sovereignly determined to regenerate shall never possess any ability or possibility whatsoever to repent and believe?

Now, whereas the previous two questions in my sequence set the context, this is the KEY question in my sequence.  For the answer of the Calvinistic system of belief is (as I mentioned earlier) my PRIMARY dispute (although not my only dispute) with the Calvinistic doctrine of election.  So then, what was your answer?

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

All men everywhere are commanded to repent and believe Acts17

They love sin rather than God. God savingly regenerates all the Father has given to the Son.

Those not elected are passed over, and left to themselves to repent and believe,

The door on the Ark was left open for a long time and the people did not want to enter.

from the 1689;

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

So, in this portion of your answer, you indicate that "those not elected are passed over," such that they are "left to themselves to repent and believe."  Yet we both know that no lost sinner has any ability or possibility to repent and believe apart from some "first work" of the Lord God upon their hearts (whether that "first work" be "prevenient grace" or "regenerating grace" or "drawing grace" or some other "first work of grace).

Even so, in my posting above I broke this question down into smaller parts, as follows:

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

According to the Calvinistic system of belief -

Has the Lord God sovereignly willed NOT to call them effectually?

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

There is a general outward call to all men who hear the word preached.

This is often rejected.

The effectual call is inward by the Spirit giving a new heart that welcomes the truth. Ezk 36:25-27

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

Indeed, that which you placed in green teaches that "although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will NOR CAN truly come to Christ, and therefore CANNOT be saved."  So then, as best I can discern, the Calvinistic system of belief does indeed teach that the Lord God, by His sovereign will, appointed and constituted them to be sinners in and by Adam's first sin, passed them over from His "effectual calling" and from any ability or opportunity to repent and believe, and thus thereby determined that they can never come to Christ for salvation.

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

According to the Calvinistic system of belief -


Has the Lord God sovereignly willed that they cannot (have no ability or possibility) come to Christ?

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

They are passed over or left, theogians speak of preterition, as highlighted in section4, bolded in green

So, the portion that you bolded in green above is your answer - Yes, the Calvinistic system of belief teachest that God passed them over, such that "they neither will NOR CAN truly come to Christ, and therefore CANNOT be saved."  Indeed, the Calvinistic system of belief teaches that the Lord God sovereignly willed that they will NEVER have any ability or possibility to come unto Christ.

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

According to the Calvinistic system of belief -


Has the Lord God sovereignly willed that they cannot (have no ability or possibility) be saved?

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

The promise of God is freely offered to all men, and everyone believing will be saved.

Yet you have already revealed to us the teaching in the Calvinistic system of belief that the Lord God has sovereignly willed to pass some over, such that they CANNOT come unto Christ and CANNOT be saved. 

Now, you state that the Calvinistic system of belief teaches that "the promise of God is freely offered to all men."  Yet you have already revealed that, according to the Calvinistic system of belief, in order for that offer actually to be receivable it must be accompanied by God's sovereign work of "effectual calling."  Even so, according to the Calvinistic system of belief, for those to whom the Lord God has not granted His sovereign work of "effectual calling the offer of God's promise is in empty word only, since it is not accompanied by any work of God's grace to support it.

As for myself, I firmly and boldly declare -- GOD FORBID!  This is NOT the Lord God of Holy Scripture!

 

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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2 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Hello Jim,

Several have set aside quotes from Godly Pastors and teachers calling then heretics and the teaching hogwash.

Do you think this is acceptable?

I quoted a section from JP Boyce, abstract of systematic theology, and it was mocked. It is used by most seminaries and was a foundational statement of the SBC.

The poster suggested I use the bible? the link had over 50 bible verses

 

Deflection doesn't work with me. My post to you stands as written.

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4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So, the portion that you bolded in green above is your answer - Yes, the Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God passed them over, such that "they neither will NOR CAN truly come to Christ, and therefore CANNOT be saved."  Indeed, the Calvinistic system of belief teaches that the Lord God sovereignly willed that they will NEVER have any ability or possibility to come unto Christ.

The Calvinistic system of belief would have us to believe that God our Savior has sovereignly willed that some should be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth, but that the rest should have no ability or possibility ever to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.  Furthermore, the Calvinistic system of belief would have us to believe that God our Savior has sovereignly willed that some should not perish, but come to repentance, yet that the rest should most certainly perish because they shall have no ability or possibility ever to come unto repentance.

However, God's Holy Word teaches otherwise concerning our Lord God's gracious will:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 -- "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 -- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

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49 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The Calvinistic system of belief would have us to believe that God our Savior has sovereignly willed that some should be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth, but that the rest should have no ability or possibility ever to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.  Furthermore, the Calvinistic system of belief would have us to believe that God our Savior has sovereignly willed that some should not perish, but come to repentance, yet that the rest should most certainly perish because they shall have no ability or possibility ever to come unto repentance.

However, God's Holy Word teaches otherwise concerning our Lord God's gracious will:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 -- "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 -- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Everyone mentioned in 2 pet 3: 9 is going to be saved as it is speaking of the elect....to-usward.

Your non Calvinist view describes a God who wants all men to be saved but cannot save them as your understanding of the verse is off.

The Calvinist understanding is that God saves each and every person He desires to save.

He does not try and fail but has ordained each lost sheep to be found.

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    • Richg  »  BrotherTony

      Brother Tony, I read your reply on Anderson, I know you all think I'm argumentative but, when you don't agree.....the first thought I had is, I wish you would introduce me to the guy that hasn't sinned, maybe David, that had a man killed so he could commit adultery, yet, he was & is a man after Gods own heart, or maybe Paul the guy that persecuted and had Christians killed, or maybe Richg or Kent H, or even you ! I used to listen to personalities also when I was younger but today and for some time, my only concern is, does it line up with scripture & to me its hilarious that you think "I'm in a fix" LOL, I interpreted what we've discussed perfectly, not because I'm smart, but because with an open mind to things of God, its an easy read.
      · 1 reply
    • Richg  »  Jerry

      I thought you wanted me to stop talking to you !
      · 0 replies
    • Richg  »  PastorMatt

      Why is it here in 2022 that truth is all of a sudden arrogance ?
      · 0 replies
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