Bibles That Remove Or Confuse The Deity Of Christ

[Jerry]

In the NT, Joseph is nowhere called Jesus' father, except in the verses that modern versions have played around with. In fact, when Mary refers to Joseph as Jesus' father, Jesus corrects her and reminds her that God is His Father, not Joseph.

Luke 2:48-49 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

When the NT speaks about Jesus' parents, it says "Joseph and his mother" - and the Greek word in each verse is "Joseph", not just a pronoun meaning "he" or another word meaning "father." In this verse, Joseph is referred to as the "carpenter" - and yes, the Greek word means "carpenter," not "father" or anything else.

Matthew 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

The Bible doctrine is that God the Father is Jesus' father, and Joseph is just his stepfather, and nowhere do Jesus or any other NT writer refer to Joseph as Jesus' father, except for Mary once, and she is corrected by Jesus.

This verse indicates that people supposed Joseph was Jesus' father - but he was not Jesus' actual father (in other words, the Bible itself corrects anyone who thought otherwise):

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

It is interesting that many modern versions also mess around with this verse:

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

They change "her" to "their", which doesn't even make any sense. Only the mother had to purify herself after a child's birth.

 

[Jerry]

His enemies referred to Joseph as His father, but they did not believe His father was God.

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

John 8:41-42 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

[BrotherTony]

Making note here...trying to make the CT meet up with the RT is the height of dishonesty, because they have are texts that are different. To say the the CT is removing words, phrases, or perverting the Lordship or message of Jesus Christ isn't necessarily true. The CT is NOT the same as the RT....The KJV is more a "word for word" translation (and remember, it's been updated several times from the 1611 to the 1786 version for spelling changes, etc.), where the underlying texts for the modern versions are more a phrase for phrase translation. Trying to make the two texts "jive" with each other isn't going to happen....In message, possibly...in word for word equivalence...doubtful.

[Bro. West]

15 hours ago, Jerry said:

You brought it up. It is nothing but personal preference that you have stated. If it was a doctrinal issue, right or wrong, then you have a basis to challenge someone one way or the either - but saying someone is wrong on a matter of purely personal interest is kind of weird.

Immortal means something cannot die. Our soul is brought to life and is now eternal - will live forever in Heaven or Hell (so is definitely immortal now).

immortal means something cannot die. Our soul is brought to life and is now eternal - will live forever in Heaven or Hell (so is definitely immortal now).

                                                                 My Reply

Man is triad body , soul and spirit. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:23

The body is mortal not immortal. Mortal means subject to death. That is why we have morticians (undertakers) . We have no “soulticians” or spiriticians”. Any JW would have a field day with this term immoral soul. (Because they want to teach that soul and body are the same)

Paul writes (1Cor: 15; 35-54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:54

Think of it as putting on a new suit of clothes. I have been to two funerals this week and when I looked in their coffins I saw their MORTAL remains, not their soul remains or their spirit remains.

Right now, brother you are walking around with you soul inside your piece of corruption (mortal body). Think of a football. There you have the outer covering (body), the rubber bladder (soul) and filled with air (spirit).

When you die (mortal corruption) your soul will go to the Lord. Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2Co 5:6 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2Co 5:8

The rich man in Luke 16 soul went to hell. Not his body.

Peter spoke putting off his tabernacle (body). Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2Pe 1:14 Peter is waiting for a new suit of clothe (tabernacle) . And it will happen in a moment, a twinkling of an eye (!Cor. 15:51)

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phi 3:21

You said “Our soul is brought to life and is now eternal”. Our soul lost or saved is eternal and can not be destroyed, unless one believes in annihilation (heresy). The rich man’s soul is still burning. When does an unborn babe receive a soul or spirit I do not know.

Before you were saved you had a dead spirit, but afterward a live spirit. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16 This is the new birth. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:6
 

An operation takes place a spiritual circumcision, you are cut loose from spiritual death. Your spirit died when you realized sin. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom 7:9 This why young children do not go to hell, it is called accountability. This is enough for now

 

[Jerry]

Bro. West, with your big long post, you ended up basically saying what I said above. God created our soul and spirit, and now both are immortal - they live forever (or exist forever, which is what most people mean when they refer to something being immortal). My spirit, sou,l and body (once the rapture comes) will exist forever in Heaven. The lost's spirit, soul, and body will exist forever in Hell (though it will be spiritual death, the second death, separation from God forever in the lake of fire).

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Hmmmm. I am starting to wonder which is the main theme of this thread discussion --

Is it the theme (subject) for which Brother Jerry originally started this thread?

Or is it the theme (agenda) that Brother West is seeking to push through this thread?

(Note: I myself do not have much conflict with the theme that Brother Jerry has been presenting herein, but I DO have a bit of conflict with the agenda the Brother West seems to be pushing herein.  Indeed, I have a number of questions and responses in regard to that which appears to be Brother West's agenda; however, I do NOT wish to sidetrack Brother Jerry's thread discussion from his original purpose.)

Edited December 17, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Bro. West]

 Thank you for the reply. It would do you well not to refer to the soul and spirit as immortal. The word mortal has to do with the body, which has not become immortal , yet. When God gave you a new body then it will become immortal. Before you were saved you had a live body and a live soul and a dead spirit. The moment you received Jesus as your Saviour, your spirit was made alive. John 3  6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
    7, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The Holy Spirit dwells in you, in your spirit, this is the being second birth. 

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23 Your redemption of the body has yet to happen-----it is waiting.. I do not know how much clearer I can. Be a man saved or lost he has an eternal soul not immortal. This soul goes to either heaven or hell. A body does not go to hell it rots. The JW want to make the soul and body the same and they go to the grave. Hell is the grave to them, that is why you must not use the term immortal when referring to the soul and spirit. Thank you.

Let us go back to the original thread.

[Jerry]

Sorry, just because you come along and make a statement out of the blue does not make it true. I have more trust in Noah Webster than you, and here is his definition for immortal:

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
immortal

IMMOR'TAL, a. L. immortalis. See Mortal.

1. Having no principle of alteration or corruption; exempt from death; having life or being that shall never end; as an immortal soul.

To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever. 1 Tim.1.

2. Never ending; everlasting; continual.

I have Immortal longings in me.

3. Perpetual; having unlimited existence. (My words: this certainly applies to our souls once God creates them.)

A corporation is called an immortal being.

4. Destined to live in all the ages of this world; imperishable; as immortal fame.

So Homer is called the immortal bard.

[Bro. West]

KJV Dictionary Definition: mortal

mortal

MOR'TAL, a. L. mortalis, from mors, death, or morior, to die, that is, to fall.

1. Subject to death; destined to die. Man is mortal.

2. Deadly; destructive to life; causing death, or that must cause death; as a mortal wound; mortal poison.

The fruit

Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste

Brought death into the world, and all our woe--

3. Bringing death; terminating life.

Safe in the hand of one disposing power,

Or in the natal or the mortal hour.

4. Deadly in malice or purpose; as a mortal foe. In colloquial language, a mortal foe is an inveterate foe.

5. Exposing to certain death; incurring the penalty of death; condemned to be punished with death; not venial; as a mortal sin.

6. Human; belonging to man who is mortal; as mortal wit or knowledge; mortal power.

The voice of God

To mortal ear is dreadful.

7. Extreme; violent. Not elegant.

The nymph grew pale, and in a mortal fright--

MOR'TAL, n. Man; a being subject to death; a human being.

Warn poor mortals left behind.

It is often used in ludicrous and colloquial language.

I can behold no mortal now.

mortality

MORTAL'ITY, n. L. mortalitas. Subjection to death or the necessity of dying.

When I saw her die,

I then did think on your mortality.

1. Death.

Gladly would I meet

Mortality, my sentence.

2. Frequency of death; actual death of great numbers of men or beasts; as a time of great mortality.

3. Human nature.

Take these tears, mortality's relief.

4. Power of destruction.

Mortality and mercy in Vienna,

Live in thy tongue and heart.

mortalize

MOR'TALIZE, v.t. To make mortal.

mortally

MOR'TALLY, adv. Irrecoverably; in a manner that must cause death; as mortally wounded.

1. Extremely.

Adrian mortally envied poets, painters and artificers, in works wherein he had a vein to excel.

---

Definitions from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.

We could play word games all day brother, the point is you live in a mortal body now and it will die, soon I hope we will have a new body that will never die.

  So let us move on and answer the original about Translations that want to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

  Suppose we have 10 verses that teach and bare witness to the fact that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh (there are more), that would be a strong witness. Now let us say I remove 5 of them, is my witness is my case as strong? The answer is obvious. It is sad, very sad. Satan has always been against the two seeds. The living Word and the written word.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Gal 5:9
When you change God manifested to he who (1Tim.3:16) destroy 1John 5:7, call Jesus the begotten God (John 1:18), call Joseph Jesus' father (Luke 2:33), remove without a cause dealing with angry (Matt. 5:22) thus making Jesus a sinner, shorten his name to Jesus rather than Jesus Christ helping to teach the old heresy of the Gnostics or remove the word Lord out of the repenting thief' mouth and say Jesus instead (Adoptionism), removing firstborn from Matt. 1:25 (virgin birth), and on and on it goes.

[Jerry]

The point is you invent things, teach them as fact and teach that we must accept your random preference of the day, then once you have the last word, you are like, "Okay, let's go on."

Maybe if you use a bigger font, someone might be confused and accept your viewpoint. Thanks though for quoting random word entries that don't support what you want us to accept. As I read the Word of God about my immortal soul, I will ponder passages that modern versions attempt to change or dilute, then I will cling to my King James Bible all the more.

You are saying basically the same basic thing as I have said regarding the theme of this thread; however, your weird random "Thou shalt nots" are discrediting the points you are trying to make. People read them and think "this poster is wacky, I think I will just ignore what he is saying as it makes no sense."

And why am I bothering to refute you instead of just ignoring what you are saying? Because I don't want newcomers to think that your random preferences are actually important or that they should be followed when there is no Biblical basis for them. Now if you want to discuss something Biblical that we should believe, I am all ears.

[BrotherTony]

4 hours ago, Bro. West said:

KJV Dictionary Definition: mortal

mortal

MOR'TAL, a. L. mortalis, from mors, death, or morior, to die, that is, to fall.

1. Subject to death; destined to die. Man is mortal.

2. Deadly; destructive to life; causing death, or that must cause death; as a mortal wound; mortal poison.

The fruit

Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste

Brought death into the world, and all our woe--

3. Bringing death; terminating life.

Safe in the hand of one disposing power,

Or in the natal or the mortal hour.

4. Deadly in malice or purpose; as a mortal foe. In colloquial language, a mortal foe is an inveterate foe.

5. Exposing to certain death; incurring the penalty of death; condemned to be punished with death; not venial; as a mortal sin.

6. Human; belonging to man who is mortal; as mortal wit or knowledge; mortal power.

The voice of God

To mortal ear is dreadful.

7. Extreme; violent. Not elegant.

The nymph grew pale, and in a mortal fright--

MOR'TAL, n. Man; a being subject to death; a human being.

Warn poor mortals left behind.

It is often used in ludicrous and colloquial language.

I can behold no mortal now.

mortality

MORTAL'ITY, n. L. mortalitas. Subjection to death or the necessity of dying.

When I saw her die,

I then did think on your mortality.

1. Death.

Gladly would I meet

Mortality, my sentence.

2. Frequency of death; actual death of great numbers of men or beasts; as a time of great mortality.

3. Human nature.

Take these tears, mortality's relief.

4. Power of destruction.

Mortality and mercy in Vienna,

Live in thy tongue and heart.

mortalize

MOR'TALIZE, v.t. To make mortal.

mortally

MOR'TALLY, adv. Irrecoverably; in a manner that must cause death; as mortally wounded.

1. Extremely.

Adrian mortally envied poets, painters and artificers, in works wherein he had a vein to excel.

---

Definitions from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.

We could play word games all day brother, the point is you live in a mortal body now and it will die, soon I hope we will have a new body that will never die.

  So let us move on and answer the original about Translations that want to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

  Suppose we have 10 verses that teach and bare witness to the fact that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh (there are more), that would be a strong witness. Now let us say I remove 5 of them, is my witness is my case as strong? The answer is obvious. It is sad, very sad. Satan has always been against the two seeds. The living Word and the written word.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Gal 5:9
When you change God manifested to he who (1Tim.3:16) destroy 1John 5:7, call Jesus the begotten God (John 1:18), call Joseph Jesus' father (Luke 2:33), remove without a cause dealing with angry (Matt. 5:22) thus making Jesus a sinner, shorten his name to Jesus rather than Jesus Christ helping to teach the old heresy of the Gnostics or remove the word Lord out of the repenting thief' mouth and say Jesus instead (Adoptionism), removing firstborn from Matt. 1:25 (virgin birth), and on and on it goes.

Jerry has already stated what you're stating...but taking the long way around the barn trying to convey. 

[SureWord]

The rule of thumb with new translations which was established by Westcott and Hort of the Oxford Movement was any MSS/text reading that is shorter is superior and to be considered closer to the non-existent originals. Therefore, many verses have words like "Lord" "Christ" "God" removed because they say they were added later by overzealous scribes.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

The rule of thumb with new translations which was established by Westcott and Hort of the Oxford Movement was any MSS/text reading that is shorter is superior and to be considered closer to the non-existent originals. Therefore, many verses have words like "Lord" "Christ" "God" removed because they say they were added later by overzealous scribes.

Indeed. And that whole system of textual "criticism" (which actually started somewhat before Westcott and Hort made it so popular) is a bunch of bologna (unless perchance you think that bologna is good, then you will want to insert some other negative descriptive).  That whole system is (in my opinion) the devil's attempt to defeat God's divine work of preservation.  The devil certainly cannot win that battle, because he simply cannot defeat the divine work of God; but he sure can deceive many throughout the course of the engagement.

[Jordan Kurecki]

16 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed. And that whole system of textual "criticism" (which actually started somewhat before Westcott and Hort made it so popular) is a bunch of bologna (unless perchance you think that bologna is good, then you will want to insert some other negative descriptive).  That whole system is (in my opinion) the devil's attempt to defeat God's divine work of preservation.  The devil certainly cannot win that battle, because he simply cannot defeat the divine work of God; but he sure can deceive many throughout the course of the engagement.

The canons of textual criticism are pretty much just opinion and conjecture passed off as science in my opinion, I want to know what experiments they have done to prove their different canons. Like was there some study done that demonstrates when people are asked to copy something that they are more likely to add things than to omit them? 

IMO it's much easier to omit something than to add something not there. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Jordan Kurecki

[Disciple.Luke]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:21 AM, Bro. West said:

Luke 2;33 Is enough for me, if Joseph is Jesus father, then I will see you in hell.

I agree with Brother Tony that the text is only referring to Joseph's role as the "father". The context in chapter 1 and 2 clearly points out that Mary was a virgin and her pregnancy would be a miracle set forth by God.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the NIV Bible and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I just don't believe that the translators were attempting to give the impression that Joseph was the literal father of Jesus. At least not in the specific passage being discussed.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Disciple.Luke