Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Total Depravity...


Recommended Posts

  • Members
On 11/9/2021 at 1:54 PM, Jerry said:

The following is taken from the Way of Life Encyclopedia (just using or for a basic definition):

Total Depravity: Man is totally corrupt and dead in his sin so that he cannot even respond to the gospel unless God sovereignly enables him, which only happens if he is one of the elect. God not only must enable the dead sinner but must sovereignly regenerate him and give him the gift of faith. In the words of the Westminster Confession Total Depravity is defined as follows: “Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity does not mean merely that the sinner has no righteousness of his own or that his heart is depraved. It means also that his will is in bondage to sin in such a fashion that he is unable to believe the gospel. Further, it means that he must therefore be born again before he can believe. Arthur Pink states this doctrine as follows: “Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. ... Faith is a spiritual grace, the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because the unregenerate are spiritually dead--‘dead in trespasses and sins’--then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a dead man cannot believe anything” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 73).
 
---------
The Bible itself teaches man can respond to the Gospel - receive it or reject it. Of course, the Holy Spirit is doing His work of convicting and testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ, but never forces anyone to be saved apart from their own will and response to the truth.
 
Acts 7:51-53 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
 
Regeneration comes after a person receives the Gospel, after he trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation - and is not the reason for their salvation. That would be putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Again, does this definition actually conform to Calvin's writing? I know lots of people who call themselves Calvinists, that believe a lot of varied things regarding the entire ZTULIP thing. Ultimately there are only three opinions that matter: What do I believe is true (which should conform to scripture), what did Calvin himself teach and ultimately, what does the Bible say. It's dangerous to latch onto a raw concept and defend it while disregarding everything else. That's what (who I call) Hyper-Calvinists do. It seems like what you are doing, too. 

I started this thread to discuss the scriptural backing for Total Depravity. Calvin's teachings themselves come second to that and are ultimately only important in defining what Calvinism is or is not. Whatever Calvinism actually is, is at best secondary to scripture. The concept of TULIP, to me, is useful only as it is defined by scripture, not by Calvinists, Hyper-Calvinists, Ne-Calvinists, Arminians, or any other group. 

On 11/9/2021 at 3:14 PM, pastormitchell said:

I agree but what is missing is that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

But isn't saying "Faith comes by hearing" similar to "To make a cake you need flour"? Hearing the gospel is a vital ingredient, but not the only ingredient. I agree that the idea that we contribute absolutely nothing to our salvation is flawed in the face of both Scripture as well as Logic (by what, then, is God basing His decision to choose us on?) I'm not saying you're wrong, just pointing out that that verse is part of the answer, but a part Hyper-Calvinists ignore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
On 11/9/2021 at 3:38 PM, Jerry said:

Yes, certainly. I wasn't focussed on that - but I agree. Man cannot respond to the Gospel until he has first heard or read the Gospel. Then the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to convict him of his sins and his need for the Saviour, and the person is left with the choice of what to do with Jesus/the Gospel. When someone responds positively and receives the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for salvation, then the Holy Spirit regenerates him and he becomes a born again child of God.

I think the crux of the problem in regards to -isms, is that rather than starting with Scripture, then applying Logic, we have people embracing slogans and vague concepts and only then trying to fit Scripture and Logic in, and limiting both to what conforms to the original precept. Whether that -ism is Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism or a blind rejection of anything that labels itself Calvinism. 

Labels can help us identify important aspects of an original document, but too many -isms place the label as more important than the original document, to the degree that the original is tossed and the labels alone remain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Thank the good Lord that I don't have to stand on either side of the Calvinist/Arminian debate...Too much time is spent on the "I am of Calvin" argument, as it does on the opposing side. It hasn't been settled in over 400 years, and it won't be settled on any forums on the internet. It's time wasted, and is divisive. I'm thankful to say the "I am of Jesus Christ." I'm a Christian first and foremost....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

BrotherTony, I agree with what you said above. I am not in either camp - I am a Biblicist. I strive to make sure that I get all my theology from the Bible. I can learn from a teacher, but I do not follow a teacher above the Bible - I follow them (if I do follow them in any sense) inasmuch as they follow Christ/the Bible.

I will add though, there is a time and place to refute false theology, to stand for the truth, to teach others the truth. It's great that we believe (and are absolutely convicted) we are standing where the Bible would have us stand - but we need to also (when and where appropriate) help others to know where to stand. Endless debates for the sake of debates is of the Devil - refuting error and reinforcing the truth is of God. Of course, we also need God's wisdom to know which is which (James 1:5).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
On 11/9/2021 at 11:38 AM, Jerry said:

Total Depravity - yes, man is depraved, but God gives us a will, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and need of the Saviour, and we are able to receive or reject the Saviour and His salvation. This is seen in both instances, for example, in the book of Acts. Calvinism teaches man is unable to respond unless the Holy Spirit regenerates them first, then they are born again (however, regenerate means born again! - so they are born again in order to be born again...).

Let's start with the above quote. Is man depraved? Yes. So depraved that he is unable to respond positively or negatively to the Gospel? No.

Of course, man cannot come to the Lord unless the Holy Spirit is convicting him and drawing him; however, Jesus said If He be lifted up (ie. crucified on the cross) He would draw all men unto Himself.

Can someone reject or resist the Saviour/the truth? Yes. There are various passages in the OT and the NT that teach this.

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Can someone respond to the Gospel without hearing the Word of God (ie. the Gospel specifically)? No.

Romans 10:12-17 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I have already mentioned John 16, about the convicting and testifying work of the Holy Spirit. Are there any passages anywhere in the Bible that teach or show someone being controlled by the Holy Spirit that they have no choice in the matter of their salvation?

Even Saul/Paul was given a choice. The passages teach that he was kicking against the pricks - his conscience - and when he saw the risen Christ, he realized all his rebellion was against the truth/against God, and repented and trusted Christ. His response shows that.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...