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And the stars of heaven fell.....


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5 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Please, Hugh, explain how it will be both literal and spiritualized. If it is, it's not something that occurs very often in scripture. 

What do you mean? Spiritual doesn’t mean figurative. I don’t figuratively have the Holy Spirit in me, I literally do. I am spiritually born again, yet I am literally born again in the spirit. In Gods eyes I’m a new man, with a new spirit but I am still the same person. 

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17 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said:

What do you mean? Spiritual doesn’t mean figurative. I don’t figuratively have the Holy Spirit in me, I literally do. I am spiritually born again, yet I am literally born again in the spirit. In Gods eyes I’m a new man, with a new spirit but I am still the same person. 

I've never known the spiritualization of scripture being anything other than figurative...need clarification of your terms...spriritual and figurative...And your answer didn't answer my question.

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Is Heaven not literal because it’s a spiritual place? 

Spiritual - Things pertaining to the spirit 

Figurative - Things not literal; metaphorical. 

All things spiritual are literal. 

Now we can be figurative about the spiritual things - IE We can say Our Country is Sodom and Gomorrah, it’s not literal, but it is figurative of spiritual likeness. It’s not literal unless God says it is.

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50 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said:

Is Heaven not literal because it’s a spiritual place? 

Spiritual - Things pertaining to the spirit 

Figurative - Things not literal; metaphorical. 

All things spiritual are literal. 

Now we can be figurative about the spiritual things - IE We can say Our Country is Sodom and Gomorrah, it’s not literal, but it is figurative of spiritual likeness. It’s not literal unless God says it is.

Spiritualizing a text means that it has a hidden meaning. This meaning is usually explained in figurative terms, not literal. It may have a literal meaning in the long run, but the spiritualization of the text IS using a figurative approach. So, in that context, yes, things can be both spiritualized but literal as well. But, the terminology being used to describe what is literal IS NOT literal, it's been spiritualized, or in other words, it has been put in figurative/metaphorical terms.

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2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Spiritualizing a text means that it has a hidden meaning. This meaning is usually explained in figurative terms, not literal. It may have a literal meaning in the long run, but the spiritualization of the text IS using a figurative approach. So, in that context, yes, things can be both spiritualized but literal as well. But, the terminology being used to describe what is literal IS NOT literal, it's been spiritualized, or in other words, it has been put in figurative/metaphorical terms.

So we agree, things can be literal and spiritual, and that being figurative doesn’t impact the literal translation. 

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When I said "spiritualization" I meant taking the literal meaning and applying it in a non literal way. It's not the best term but it's how it is explained at times.

Spiritualizing or allegorizing isn't always wrong but I think in the context of that passage the proper hermeneutics would be a literal reading especially compared to other passages like Matthew 24:29-31.

 

 

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Guest Iconoclast

The figure of the sun ,moon ,and stars falling to the earth, is a change of government administration.

isa13,Isa.34,mt 24,joel 2, acts2

 

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2 hours ago, Guest Iconoclast said:

The figure of the sun ,moon ,and stars falling to the earth, is a change of government administration.

isa13,Isa.34,mt 24,joel 2, acts2

 

So does that means the stars fall to earth every 4 to 8 years when there's a new administration? And then they can go back into the heavens if that administration returns?

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In prophecy, sometimes the stars are literal, sometimes they are figurative - how do we know which applies to each passage? If the passage is also referring to literal sun, moon, and stars, then the stars in question are literal. If they are all used as a symbol, then the stars are also symbolic in that passage.

Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Obviously, this is symbolic. There is no literal woman wearing stars on her head. How do we determine what is meant here? By going to related passages that define the terms/symbols - which in this case would be Joseph's dream in Genesis, indicating the sun and moon are his parents, and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel - which is the woman who gives birth to the child (ie. the Messiah).

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

This is obviously a person. Angels and demons are referred to as stars in the Bible in various places.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Obviously referring to the fallen angels, that sided with Satan.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These seven stars are defined as the angels/messengers of the seven churches - because the letters in chapters 2-3 are addressed to each church (including to the leaders of the churches), I believe these are the pastors of the seven churches.

Revelation 6:12-14 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Because of the connection with the literal sun and moon, then these are also literal stars - not great suns far off in the galaxy, but what we refer to as falling stars (ie. meteorites), because they are falling down to earth. Like as mentioned by someone else, if our sun or any other suns came too close to us (let alone collided with us), there would be nothing left of the earth.

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Again, the literal sun and moon are also in the context - but here the passage refers to literal stars being darkened. That doesn't happen with "falling stars". In Genesis, God refers to the literal sun, moon, and stars being used to indicate signs and seasons to mankind. Jesus also refers to signs in the heavens.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Stars and constellations - therefore literal, physical stars not shining on earth, same thing for the sun and moon - somehow their lights have gone out or our atmosphere (with all its smoke and pollution during God's judgements) is hindering their lights from reaching us. Other places refer to the moon being as blood. If you have ever seen all the red skies and red moon during a period of forest fires, you can easily see how that can happen during the tribulation period.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 16:7-8 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Intense heat...

Revelation 16:9-10 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Possibly followed by intense cold... Not saying 100% this is the case here (and even if it is, it is all under God's timing of opening the seals and not as a direct result of destruction on the earth caused by what had gone on before), but whenever there are forest fires, the temperature of an area goes down quite a bit. So much pollution hindering the sun from shining through our atmosphere to earth, and suddenly the temperature drops down dangerously.

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