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God preserving his word


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1 hour ago, Hugh_Flower said:

on that note, this entire discussion is just mans babble. It’s up to the Holy Spirit to teach us scripture anyway.

I guess you don't know your Bible then. God gave teachers to the churches to teach and build up the churches.

 

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Hebrews 5:11-13 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

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You're not understanding what I meant in that post. The Holy Spirit is what teaches us when we read scripture. 

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

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7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, this discussion is about the BIBLICAL doctrines of inspiration and preservation - how they are Biblically defined, how they relate Biblically to each other, how they relate Biblically to the matter of translation, and how they provide for a divinely authoritative Scriptures for us today.  

This isn't an issue that can be solved through the means of man, it's an issue of conviction and ones faith and trust on God's provision for his people. We have his word now. Why should we doubt future generations or past generations don't or won't have it? Or even other nations?

If we have missionaries sent out with the KJV, and they translate into the language of their residency, should we not have faith that, that is sufficient by the grace of God? Doctrinally, these are issues for local Church bodies, but even inside those churches they will only be proven through the conviction of the Holy Spirit for the individuals.  

I believe God wishes Israel to be righteous, and to testify for him, but instead through GRACE he has used another Witness, us the church. And I don't see how that lens cannot be used to view the dispensation of our Bible. 

Also, to think of it in another way. There is two debates taking place. But they are related.  "Is the KJV wholly sufficient" and "Is there a Bible wholly sufficient". The second question should be answered first. And the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Now, "Is the KJV wholly sufficient" - Yes, to those who show them selves approved. 

"Can we go outside the KJV" - Yes, to those who show them selves approved. 

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 TIMOTHY 2:15.

I would say, any translation done properly, is done by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Anyways, this entire thread is sad and is a perfect example of Modern Christianity. Biting each others heads off for 'heresy'. Church splits over ties and suits. 
None of you actually understood what Sureword is saying, His complaint about the Textus Receptus is because of translations like the MEV, Modern English Version, which if we went by the how the thread dictates, would be proper. However even that Bible is in error. But yes continue to jive and hoorah for tearing another Brothers head off. 

Edited by Hugh_Flower
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7 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

This isn't an issue that can be solved through the means of man, it's an issue of conviction and ones faith and trust on God's provision for his people. We have his word now. Why should we doubt future generations or past generations don't or won't have it? Or even other nations?

If we have missionaries sent out with the KJV, and they translate into the language of their residency, should we not have faith that, that is sufficient by the grace of God? Doctrinally, these are issues for local Church bodies, but even inside those churches they will only be proven through the conviction of the Holy Spirit for the individuals.  

I believe God wishes Israel to be righteous, and to testify for him, but instead through GRACE he has used another Witness, us the church. And I don't see how that lens cannot be used to view the dispensation of our Bible. 

Also, to think of it in another way. There is two debates taking place. But they are related.  "Is the KJV wholly sufficient" and "Is there a Bible wholly sufficient". The second question should be answered first. And the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Now, "Is the KJV wholly sufficient" - Yes, to those who show them selves approved. 

"Can we go outside the KJV" - Yes, to those who show them selves approved. 

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 TIMOTHY 2:15.

I would say, any translation done properly, is done by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Anyways, this entire thread is sad and is a perfect example of Modern Christianity. Biting each others heads off for 'heresy'. Church splits over ties and suits. 
None of you actually understood what Sureword is saying, His complaint about the Textus Receptus is because of translations like the MEV, Modern English Version, which if we went by the how the thread dictates, would be proper. However even that Bible is in error. But yes continue to jive and hoorah for tearing another Brothers head off. 

Thank you, brother.

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6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

This isn't an issue that can be solved through the means of man, it's an issue of conviction and ones faith and trust on God's provision for his people. 

Actually, NO Biblical doctrine can "be solved" strictly "through the means of man."  Rather, ALL Biblical doctrine requires diligent and careful Bible study (see 2 Timothy 2:15) under the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit (see 1 John 2:27), that can humbly learn from God-given teachers (see Ephesians 4:11-14) and from Spirit-filled edifiers (see Ephesians 4:15-16), and that can graciously, yet earnestly contend for the faith (see Jude 1:3).

6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

This isn't an issue that can be solved through the means of man, it's an issue of conviction and ones faith and trust on God's provision for his people. We have his word now. Why should we doubt future generations or past generations don't or won't have it? Or even other nations?

I have NO doubts that we possess God's true Word for us now, or that the Lord our God will preserve His true Word for each and every future generation.  He most certainly will because He has promised that He would.  However, this discussion (at least my part in it) is NOT about doubting whether God's Word is available to us now or shall be available for each and every future generation.  Rather, this discussion (at least my part in it) is about the Biblical DOCTRINES of INSPRATION and PRESERVATION (which is precisely what I said in my previous posting).  Indeed, it is about getting those doctrines Biblically correct, and (in my case) about earnestly contending against those who are getting those doctrines incorrect.  For I have been convinced by God the Holy Spirit that these doctrines are quite foundational to our system of belief, and that those who get them incorrect are worthy of ministry separation.

6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

If we have missionaries sent out with the KJV, and they translate into the language of their residency, should we not have faith that, that is sufficient by the grace of God? 

Whether or not such is "sufficient" really depends upon the quality of the translation, the accuracy of the translation, and whether a translation from the divinely preserved, original language Hebrew and Greek texts was reasonably possible.  So, to answer your question more directly - Not necessarily.

6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

Doctrinally, these are issues for local Church bodies, but even inside those churches they will only be proven through the conviction of the Holy Spirit for the individuals.  

That is an interesting thought.  However, if doctrinal issues are only ever "for local church bodies," then NO doctrinal discussion should occur outside a given local church body, which means that no doctrinal discussion of any kind should occur within this forum.  Yet this idea seems (from my perspective) to be in contradiction with the instruction of Jude 1:3 (and other passages) that we should "earnestly contend for the faith."  So then, do you have actual Biblical teaching to support your thought above; for I do not wish to disobey the instruction of my Lord without a balancing truth from His own authoritative Word.

6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

Also, to think of it in another way. There is two debates taking place. But they are related.  "Is the KJV wholly sufficient" and "Is there a Bible wholly sufficient". The second question should be answered first. And the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Now, "Is the KJV wholly sufficient" - Yes, to those who show them selves approved. 

"Can we go outside the KJV" - Yes, to those who show them selves approved. 

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 TIMOTHY 2:15.

Actually, (as per my own part in this thread discussion) there is a bit more than these "two debates taking place."  As I have previously presented, I myself am contending specifically about the Biblical doctrines of inspiration and preservation -

1.   How they are to be Biblically defined?
2.  How they relate Biblically to each other?
3.  How they relate Biblically to the matter of translation?
4.  How they provide for a divinely authoritative Scriptures for us today?  (Which is actually the question that encompasses your "two debate" issues - Is the King James translation wholly sufficient for English speaking people, and can we acceptably "go outside" the King James translation for doctrinal truth?  However, I myself would contend that this fourth question cannot be rightly answered until the first three foundational questions are first answered correctly.)

7 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

Anyways, this entire thread is sad and is a perfect example of Modern Christianity. Biting each others heads off for 'heresy'. Church splits over ties and suits. 

Actually, I myself have made no accusation of heresy against anyone in this thread discussion (although I recognize that another has made such an accusation).  However, I am willing to acknowledge that I am convinced by God the Holy Spirit that the doctrinal position to which Brother SureWord holds is worthy of my ministry separation.  I definitely view BROTHER SureWord as a fellow believer and definitely respect him as such; however, I definitely stand against his doctrinal position on this matter and view it as a significant doctrinal error.

7 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

None of you actually understood what Sureword is saying, 

Actually, I believe that I DO understand Brother SureWord's doctrinal position upon this matter.  

7 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

His complaint about the Textus Receptus is because of translations like the MEV, Modern English Version, which if we went by the how the thread dictates, would be proper. However even that Bible is in error. But yes continue to jive and hoorah for tearing another Brothers head off. 

Actually, this is inaccurate to my doctrinal position on the matter.  My doctrinal position would not accept the Modern English Version as acceptable.  Furthermore, I have NOT "jived" or "hoorahed" for "tearing another Brother's head off."  However, I HAVE earnestly contended against that which I understand as significant doctrinal error; and I HAVE earnestly contended for that which I understand as important doctrinal truth.

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7 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

None of you actually understood what Sureword is saying.

13 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, I believe that I DO understand Brother SureWord's doctrinal position upon this matter.  

A further note - If I do not understand Brother SureWord's position correctly and have misrepresented it in some manner, I would be more than comfortable for Brother SureWord to walk through my earlier presentation of his position and to point out the specific points of my misunderstanding.

 

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