Jump to content
Online Baptist Community

God preserving his word


Bouncing Bill
 Share

Recommended Posts

There are words in every language that cannot be translated into English using an equivalent word. One English word will not cover the meaning.

I just ran across one such word, Teranga. Teranga is a Senagal Wolof word. Teranga includes the values of hospitality,
courtesy, politeness, and gratitude all wrapped up in one word.  

Mandarin Chinese has the word guanxi. This word is impossible to translate in one English word.  Guanxi takes in the concept of having personal trust within a strong relationship with another person. It can involve obligations and giving favors. 

I am not even a novice in Hebrew or Greek. But I often what words in those languages are in the original Bible texts and how much was lost in the translations. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

Well it’s simple. None 

Well, I know enough about language to know that is not true. For instance Greek has four words that must be translated as 'love.' English has only one word, 'love.' But each Greed word has a different meaning. So, I know that meaning is lost. 

When Jesus ask Peter if he (Peter) loved him Peter replied, but did not use the same Greek word. That difference in meaning is lost in English.

Just now, SureWord said:

There comes a point that you just have to have faith God preserved his words for us the way he wanted them especially since we don't even have the originals.

But I do not have to believe that a particular person's interpretation of that word, where meaning is lost, is accurate. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesus asks Peter if he loves him. John 21:15-17.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Now I will add the Greek words that Jesus and Peter used which have to be translated as 'love' in English.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [agape] thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love [philo] thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [agape] thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love [philo] thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest [philo] thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love [philo]thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Note that the third time Jesus asks Peter if he loves him that Jesus drops from the highest form of love, agape to the lower form of love, philo.

This difference is lost in the translation to English.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been following the "Was the king James Bible itself inspired", finding it interesting. It has raised a question in my mind. 

Language, any language, including English is always changing. Words be come extinct, no long used. New words come into the language. The meaning of words change. Geoffrey Chaucer's Cantebury Tales is exceedingly difficult to read in the original Middle English. 

A short example from Chaucer's Middle English from his Canterbury Tales:

Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
To telle yow al the condicioun
Of ech of hem, so as it semed me,
And whiche they weren, and of what degree,
And eek in what array that they were inne (Book I, ll. 37–41)

Thus, the question is, how does God preserve his word as a language, in the case English, changes/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
9 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Well, I know enough about language to know that is not true. For instance Greek has four words that must be translated as 'love.' English has only one word, 'love.' But each Greed word has a different meaning. So, I know that meaning is lost. 

When Jesus ask Peter if he (Peter) loved him Peter replied, but did not use the same Greek word. That difference in meaning is lost in English.

But I do not have to believe that a particular person's interpretation of that word, where meaning is lost, is accurate. 

So, is it YOUR belief that Jesus Christ or the HOLY SPIRIT lied when these words were written in the Bible? If a jot or a tittle is that important, I don't believe a difference in the word is going to change God's ability to preserve His Word or to keep his promises to do so. 

Matthew 5:18

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
1 hour ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I have been following the "Was the king James Bible itself inspired", finding it interesting. It has raised a question in my mind. 

Language, any language, including English is always changing. Words be come extinct, no long used. New words come into the language. The meaning of words change. Geoffrey Chaucer's Cantebury Tales is exceedingly difficult to read in the original Middle English. 

A short example from Chaucer's Middle English from his Canterbury Tales:

Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
To telle yow al the condicioun
Of ech of hem, so as it semed me,
And whiche they weren, and of what degree,
And eek in what array that they were inne (Book I, ll. 37–41)

Thus, the question is, how does God preserve his word as a language, in the case English, changes/

BB, are you implying that God cannot preserve his Word even as the language/words change? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

So, is it YOUR belief that Jesus Christ or the HOLY SPIRIT lied when these words were written in the Bible? If a jot or a tittle is that important, I don't believe a difference in the word is going to change God's ability to preserve His Word or to keep his promises to do so. 

Matthew 5:18

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Nope, not at all. And your reply does not address the subject. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
11 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Nat at all BT. But how does God preserve his word when language changes? 

There are usually equivalent that come along to replace the word that don't change the meaning. You're the one who taught/worked in a seminary or Bible college...right? You should be aware of this if you were involved in any way in this kind of ministry. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
13 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Nope, not at all. And your reply does not address the subject. 

In a round about way, yes, it DOES address "the subject." It also puts YOU on the offensive....Your answer, "Nope, not at all," is an evasion of the question. I'll be a little more specific so that maybe even you can understand. Though there are indeed 3 different words for love in this passage you posted, anyone worth their salt would be able to find the differences by actually "studying" (2 Tim 2:15...Study to show thyself approved unto God...") by using a Bible dictionary, a commentary and a good concordance. It's not that complicated, BB...and after some of your comments in other threads "I dont NEED Scripture," it puts me into questioning your motive for asking the questions you've asked in the two threads concerning this issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Looks like too much dieting on emergent church writings has caused him to think we can't even get the Bible meaning today. Therefore a preference for other writings other than the Bible. But if you cannot study the Bible and get what God is trying to teach us from His Word - through all available sound Bible study materials - then someone has to wonder if there is something wrong.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Corinthians 1:30

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:7-16

Edited by Jerry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The issue with Bible versions is not the changing of words over time and finding the current appropriate word with the same meaning - the issue is modern versions:

1) use different underlying manuscripts, which do NOT say the same thing

2) change the MEANING of the passages, by adding to God's Word, removing from God's Word, or outright changing God's Word, which the Bible forbids us from doing. In fact, God curses those who do so.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

3) Change the language and wording a minimum of 10% in order to copyright their work. It is not just an issue of updating the language - or else, for example, the NKJV would not remove the word "matrix" from the five verses they are found in the KJV THEN GO AHEAD AND PUT THE SAME SUPPOSEDLY ARCHAIC WORD IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PASSAGE IN ISAIAH. That is deception and double speak, pure and simple.

Funny how the world and yea, even some in Christendom, have no problem with translating Plato, Aristotle, or any other ancient text - religious or secular - into another language, including English - but somehow no one can do the exact same when it comes to the Bible. I guess it is the only book on the planet that no one can ever translate accurately. Oh wait, is that the sound of hissing I hear?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Edited by Jerry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Jerry said:

The issue with Bible versions is not the changing of words over time and finding the current appropriate word with the same meaning - the issue is modern versions:

1) use different underlying manuscripts, which do NOT say the same thing

2) change the MEANING of the passages, by adding to God's Word, removing from God's Word, or outright changing God's Word, which the Bible forbids us from doing. In fact, God curses those who do so.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

3) Change the language and wording a minimum of 10% in order to copyright their work. It is not just an issue of updating the language - or else, for example, the NKJV would not remove the word "matrix" from the five verses they are found in the KJV THEN GO AHEAD AND PUT THE SAME SUPPOSEDLY ARCHAIC WORD IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PASSAGE IN ISAIAH. That is deception and double speak, pure and simple.

Funny how the world and yea, even some in Christendom, have no problem with translating Plato, Aristotle, or any other ancient text - religious or secular - into another language, including English - but somehow no one can do the exact same when it comes to the Bible. I guess it is the only book on the planet that no one can ever translate accurately. Oh wait, is that the sound of hissing I hear?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Every translation, Socrates, the Bible or any other translation looses meaning. There are no exceptions to this. 

Are there advances in scholarship?

Are there advances in understanding ancient languages?

13 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

There are usually equivalent that come along to replace the word that don't change the meaning. You're the one who taught/worked in a seminary or Bible college...right? You should be aware of this if you were involved in any way in this kind of ministry. 

I worked in the seminary library updating their data base. I never taught and have no qualifications to teach in a seminary ... other than perhaps about the library and its collection, helping students and professors find information. 

 

13 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

There are usually equivalent that come along to replace the word that don't change the meaning. You're the one who taught/worked in a seminary or Bible college...right? You should be aware of this if you were involved in any way in this kind of ministry. 

I worked in the seminary library updating their data base. I never taught and have no qualifications to teach in a seminary ... other than perhaps about the library and its collection, helping students and professors find information. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
53 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Every translation, Socrates, the Bible or any other translation looses meaning. There are no exceptions to this. 

Are there advances in scholarship?

Are there advances in understanding ancient languages?

I worked in the seminary library updating their data base. I never taught and have no qualifications to teach in a seminary ... other than perhaps about the library and its collection, helping students and professors find information. 

 

I worked in the seminary library updating their data base. I never taught and have no qualifications to teach in a seminary ... other than perhaps about the library and its collection, helping students and professors find information. 

 

That all depends...your defintion of "advances," "scholarship," "and what you consider ancient languages. I don't believe that any of these loses it's meaning if one can compare to books of the same time period, actually has access to the meaning of the words from that time through the people, the context in which things were written, etc. It still comes down to context and content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

There is nothing in the KJV that a modern English speaker cannot understand. I'm a high school dropout with a GED who never attended college and who never read a book prior to my salvation yet I could understand. 

The bottomline is do you believe that God is powerful enough to give us his words without error in a language we can read and understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 9 Guests (See full list)

    • There are no registered users currently online
  • Recent Achievements

    • ITJesus earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • JenM earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • ITJesus earned a badge
      First Post
    • ITJesus earned a badge
      Conversation Starter
    • 2bLikeJesus earned a badge
      Very Popular
  • Tell a friend

    Love Online Baptist Community? Tell a friend!
  • Members

    No members to show

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Barbara Ann

      I am a researcher and writer at Watch Unto Prayer which I started 25 years ago. On this website there are many well-documented articles and audio programs by myself and other researchers whose ministry is to expose the endtime apostasy of the Church. Now more than ever Christians need information in order to identify and avoid the various deceptions that are in nearly all the churches.
      My husband and I attended the IFB Bible Baptist Church of James Knox a couple of years ago. We left the church after we were informed by the assistant pastor that we were not allowed to express views to other members that do not agree with the views of the pastor and leaders of the church. We were not introducing heresy but expressing our views concerning the State of Israel. We had never been in a church which forbade private conversations on issues where there are diverse opinions. This we recognized as cultlike control of church members. To inform Christians, my husband, who is also a researcher and writer, started a website on the subject: Zionism Exposed: A Watchman Ministry.
      · 0 replies
    • Free Spirit

      Jesus said:"I am the truth, the way, and the life. No man can come to The Father, but by Me."
      · 0 replies
    • Richg  »  BrotherTony

      Brother Tony, I read your reply on Anderson, I know you all think I'm argumentative but, when you don't agree.....the first thought I had is, I wish you would introduce me to the guy that hasn't sinned, maybe David, that had a man killed so he could commit adultery, yet, he was & is a man after Gods own heart, or maybe Paul the guy that persecuted and had Christians killed, or maybe Richg or Kent H, or even you ! I used to listen to personalities also when I was younger but today and for some time, my only concern is, does it line up with scripture & to me its hilarious that you think "I'm in a fix" LOL, I interpreted what we've discussed perfectly, not because I'm smart, but because with an open mind to things of God, its an easy read.
      · 1 reply
    • Richg  »  Jerry

      I thought you wanted me to stop talking to you !
      · 0 replies
    • Richg  »  PastorMatt

      Why is it here in 2022 that truth is all of a sudden arrogance ?
      · 0 replies
  • Topics

×
×
  • Create New...