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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Are Rock and Country/Western music wrong?


BrotherTony
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I was raised in the IFB movement during the 70s and stayed in during the 80s-2000. While I was in the IFB circles I heard preachers constantly preaching about the Rock and Country/Western music scene and how they were "sensual, devil inspired" types of music. Many had some great background on it, but yet I found that they were allowing some CCM into their services that had the same driving beats, slurred English (Slurring words to make them sound more 'Southern' in nature...example, Karen Carpenter), and swaying, montra type lyrics. It bothered me to some degree. I was very heavy into the Rock and Country scenes growing up, especially since my father owned part of a Western store in Illinois. The church was always on me, and I even had two youth pastors from the church confiscate tapes and sheet music that I had in my car or on my person while I was on a church bus. Shaming me didn't really make things better...it just made me rebellious, because the ones taking the items were involved in allowing their "Christianized versions" of the same types of music into the youth services and adult services alike. 

So, with all of that said, what types of music are acceptable in your opinion, or according to Scriptures? I know where I stand on music. I have a friend from my days at Maranatha Baptist Bible College who wrote a couple of books on music. Are churches sliding on a slippery slope by allowing CCM into their services? Are people allowing the beats, sensuous sounds, and other things involved in the music control their bodies or their spirits? 

Please, try to stay on subject. Please don't deflect by asking me for definitions of what I'm talking about. I'm sure most of you, if you've been in the IFB circles for any length of time as I have been, know what I'm speaking of. Thanks in advance.

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I think this is a conscience decision. I've heard some Country and Rock music that doesn't seem as ungodly as modern day CCM

My experience is most pastors never preached against Country music which can be as bad as Rock music, at least lyrically. 

Anyway, Rock music is pretty much dead while Rap, Pop and Country music (which is more like Southern Pop) is what everyone listens to so a preacher preaching against Rock music in front of a crowd of young people is gonna seem out of touch.

Edited by SureWord
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55 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I think this is a conscience decision. I've heard some Country and Rock music that doesn't seem as ungodly as modern day CCM

My experience is most pastors never preached against Country music which can be as bad as Rock music, at least lyrically. 

Anyway, Rock music is pretty much dead while Rap, Pop and Country music (which is more like Southern Pop) is what everyone listens to so a preacher preaching against Rock music in front of a crowd of young people is gonna seem out of touch.

I can agree with you to an extent. Rock music is dead in some places in this country. I know here in the Nashville, TN area it is alive and well, as is Rockabilly and Country. We have a LOT of ROCK stations...classic rock, hard rock, heavy metal, etc. There was just a station taken over in Shelbyville that is now in a classic rock format. The people my age are still listening to the old rock and roll songs. It's becoming more stylish for them to listen to the music of their youth. I know that in our church most of the music being pushed by our youth pastor in the CCM field is hip hop, rap, etc. To an old fogie like me it's disgusting music, but the kids really love it. I don't believe it makes it acceptable just because they like it. But, I'm not going to argue the point with the youth pastor or anyone else. I know the music that most of our hymns came from was considered worldly bar music and people who wrote hymns were always receiving some kind of flack. I just refer them to Kent Brandenburg's book "Sound Music or Sounding Brass." I went to college with Kent, and his mother was my boss in the kitchen when I worked there.

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8 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

I can agree with you to an extent. Rock music is dead in some places in this country. I know here in the Nashville, TN area it is alive and well, as is Rockabilly and Country. We have a LOT of ROCK stations...classic rock, hard rock, heavy metal, etc. There was just a station taken over in Shelbyville that is now in a classic rock format. The people my age are still listening to the old rock and roll songs. It's becoming more stylish for them to listen to the music of their youth. I know that in our church most of the music being pushed by our youth pastor in the CCM field is hip hop, rap, etc. To an old fogie like me it's disgusting music, but the kids really love it. I don't believe it makes it acceptable just because they like it. But, I'm not going to argue the point with the youth pastor or anyone else. I know the music that most of our hymns came from was considered worldly bar music and people who wrote hymns were always receiving some kind of flack. I just refer them to Kent Brandenburg's book "Sound Music or Sounding Brass." I went to college with Kent, and his mother was my boss in the kitchen when I worked there.

When I said "dead" I mean there is nothing new coming out and most of the new generation don't bother with it. 

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6 hours ago, PastorMatt said:

How would one define CCM?

Good question. I guess I'm saying the new Christian music I find playing on the local Christian station to be dreadful. The droning on and on over the same chorus and the effeminate and sensual way of singing where they sound like they are singing to a lover. 

Don't think the world doesn't notice this style of singing either. A few years back a famous adult cartoon on TV had a whole episode poking fun at CCM music and the carnal way they sing.

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Eh. I think this is an issue people become Pharisees about. I do not believe it’s good to listen to music purely devoted to romance, or drugs which is most music for time millennium  but also I do not think listening to slice of life music is bad. I do listen to mostly Christian music, but a good slice of life song is better than a bad Christian rock song or whatever is on the ‘Christian radio’ 

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Country music often tells a story and may of those story songs have moral lessons proclaimed and some are very religious. For instance, the Hank Williams song, "I Saw the Light." Also, Haberson's, "Will the Circle Be Unbroken." "Why Me Lord," by Kris Kristofferson has a very strong Christian message. Just three examples. 

There are hymns often sung in church that contain bad theology, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

Edited by Bouncing Bill
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It's all "rock-n-roll" as it comes from the same spirit.  Where do we find these good secular Christian songs?  Scattered amongst secular "records" and radio.  Even with good words, the structure of the music with its focus on the beat or rhythm is not bible either.  We're not supposed to eat the meat and spit out the bones, we're supposed to practice biblical separation.  

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2 hours ago, swathdiver said:

It's all "rock-n-roll" as it comes from the same spirit.  Where do we find these good secular Christian songs?  Scattered amongst secular "records" and radio.  Even with good words, the structure of the music with its focus on the beat or rhythm is not bible either.  We're not supposed to eat the meat and spit out the bones, we're supposed to practice biblical separation.  

I do not believe the structure of music makes it either good or bad. Perhaps from a cultural viewpoint. But even culturally would be a stretch in my mind. I do not understand your statement 'biblical separation' when it comes to music. To me the words would make the difference. 

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Good question. I guess I'm saying the new Christian music I find playing on the local Christian station to be dreadful. The droning on and on over the same chorus and the effeminate and sensual way of singing where they sound like they are singing to a lover. 

Don't think the world doesn't notice this style of singing either. A few years back a famous adult cartoon on TV had a whole episode poking fun at CCM music and the carnal way they sing.

The truth of the matter is this: Many Christian teens notice the worldly way these "Christian" songs resemble the "worldly" music, and they call it hypocrisy...at least many of the youth I know personally. I don't know how others in other churches react. I've not been visiting other churches these days. I still stand by the Biblical standard that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

 

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2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

The truth of the matter is this: Many Christian teens notice the worldly way these "Christian" songs resemble the "worldly" music, and they call it hypocrisy...at least many of the youth I know personally. I don't know how others in other churches react. I've not been visiting other churches these days. I still stand by the Biblical standard that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

 

Yes, I agree. I just really think it comes down to conscience in these matters. I think it's safe to side with more conservative, traditional music in church. 

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10 hours ago, SureWord said:

Yes, I agree. I just really think it comes down to conscience in these matters. I think it's safe to side with more conservative, traditional music in church. 

Rather like the discussion about eating meat offered to idols in the New Testament.

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Ok, where to begin....

 

This absolutely nothing like meat offered to idols. Music is one of the most important things in the Christian life. Consider Ephesians 5:18-21 where he says, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." When we look at it without the verse separations we see that this is all one sentence, and as such it is one thought. From this we can learn that being filled with the Spirit is directly linked with things like submission, thankfulness, and Godly music. It is an undeniable truth that music is an integral part of the Spirit-filled life, and the last time I checked, the things of God are not dependent on our opinion about them. When it comes to music, our opinion about it does not matter.

When we talk about the structure of music, it is an undeniable fact that the way music is structured as an effect on our body and our mind. Anyone who has spent any amount of time honestly looking at it will know that the mind effects the body and spirit, the spirit effects the body and mind, and the body effects the spirit and mind. If you are physically sick, you are at a higher risk of depression, and the depressed person will nearly always be unsuccessful in walking with God. That is just one example of how the three are intertwined. When we look at music, the first effect we see is the beat. That's because it's the most obvious. This effects are body. Even lost, secular, rock 'n roll artist knew (and know) the the beat drives the body. What most Christians teaching about music don't tell you, is that the beat is also the easiest part of the music to correct. This is why you have so many churches taking CCM music and "fixing" it. If the only issue with CCM was the beat, I would agree with them. The more subtle structure of music is the melody. CCM tends you use a repetitive, almost monotonous form of melody. What we see from this (there was an excellent study on this done called "Music and the mind" but I don't remember the man's name) is that it will do one of two things depending on the person. For some people it will irritate them and make them want to shut it up. For other's, it will set them in a semi hypnotic state. This is how CCM, and other forms of music, introduce false doctrine into their songs without people rejecting it. There can also be harmonies which are wrong. This is a working premise of blues, jazz, rag, and such like that has worked itself into "Gospel" music. There are two forms of harmony, consonance and dissonance. Consonance resolves itself and is "pleasant", dissonance does not resolve itself and is "unpleasant" on it's own. There is a lot of music the works off of unresolved dissonance, or dissonance that "resolves" into something that doesn't really resolve it. This adversely effects the emotions. And lastly there is lyrics. If any song is unscriptural, it should not be sung. I don't care if it's a "precious old hymn" or a brand new single.

Do many young people think that we are being Pharisees with our music? Probably, but that's because many Christians, and a lot of preachers do. One of the most prevalent responses I get when talking to preachers about music is "I don't really know anything about music". Well, if you don't know anything about music, learn. We wouldn't take that attitude with submission, we would learn about submission. We wouldn't take that attitude about thankfulness, we would learn about thankfulness. We shouldn't take that attitude about music, it's necessary in living a Spirit-filled life.

In reference to Country and Rock music...

I love apples, but I'm not digging through the dump to find one.

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1 hour ago, Musician4God1611 said:

Ok, where to begin....

 

This absolutely nothing like meat offered to idols. Music is one of the most important things in the Christian life. Consider Ephesians 5:18-21 where he says, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." When we look at it without the verse separations we see that this is all one sentence, and as such it is one thought. From this we can learn that being filled with the Spirit is directly linked with things like submission, thankfulness, and Godly music. It is an undeniable truth that music is an integral part of the Spirit-filled life, and the last time I checked, the things of God are not dependent on our opinion about them. When it comes to music, our opinion about it does not matter.

When we talk about the structure of music, it is an undeniable fact that the way music is structured as an effect on our body and our mind. Anyone who has spent any amount of time honestly looking at it will know that the mind effects the body and spirit, the spirit effects the body and mind, and the body effects the spirit and mind. If you are physically sick, you are at a higher risk of depression, and the depressed person will nearly always be unsuccessful in walking with God. That is just one example of how the three are intertwined. When we look at music, the first effect we see is the beat. That's because it's the most obvious. This effects are body. Even lost, secular, rock 'n roll artist knew (and know) the the beat drives the body. What most Christians teaching about music don't tell you, is that the beat is also the easiest part of the music to correct. This is why you have so many churches taking CCM music and "fixing" it. If the only issue with CCM was the beat, I would agree with them. The more subtle structure of music is the melody. CCM tends you use a repetitive, almost monotonous form of melody. What we see from this (there was an excellent study on this done called "Music and the mind" but I don't remember the man's name) is that it will do one of two things depending on the person. For some people it will irritate them and make them want to shut it up. For other's, it will set them in a semi hypnotic state. This is how CCM, and other forms of music, introduce false doctrine into their songs without people rejecting it. There can also be harmonies which are wrong. This is a working premise of blues, jazz, rag, and such like that has worked itself into "Gospel" music. There are two forms of harmony, consonance and dissonance. Consonance resolves itself and is "pleasant", dissonance does not resolve itself and is "unpleasant" on it's own. There is a lot of music the works off of unresolved dissonance, or dissonance that "resolves" into something that doesn't really resolve it. This adversely effects the emotions. And lastly there is lyrics. If any song is unscriptural, it should not be sung. I don't care if it's a "precious old hymn" or a brand new single.

Do many young people think that we are being Pharisees with our music? Probably, but that's because many Christians, and a lot of preachers do. One of the most prevalent responses I get when talking to preachers about music is "I don't really know anything about music". Well, if you don't know anything about music, learn. We wouldn't take that attitude with submission, we would learn about submission. We wouldn't take that attitude about thankfulness, we would learn about thankfulness. We shouldn't take that attitude about music, it's necessary in living a Spirit-filled life.

In reference to Country and Rock music...

I love apples, but I'm not digging through the dump to find one.

Do you sing hymns that contain bad theology? Hymns such as:

  1. I'll Fly Away
  2. Bring Them In
  3.  He Lives
  4. Softly and Tenderly Jesus is Calling
  5. Away in the Manager

All these hymn I've listed I have loved. But I have grown and realize there is one or more theological problems with each hymn.

The one hymn I really do not like is: 

There is a Fountain

Years ago I had a friend who almost did not continue to attend church and become a Christian because of this hymn. The opening line, "There is a fountain filled with blood" almost made her throw up and there is no theological truth in that line. Indeed, it is an untrue statement. 

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35 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Years ago I had a friend who almost did not continue to attend church and become a Christian because of this hymn. The opening line, "There is a fountain filled with blood" almost made her throw up and there is no theological truth in that line. Indeed, it is an untrue statement. 

I hope you're not take that fountain as a literal fountain. Anyways this would be another topic if you wish to answer and talk about hymns that are not "Theologically" correct

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55 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

I hope you're not take that fountain as a literal fountain. Anyways this would be another topic if you wish to answer and talk about hymns that are not "Theologically" correct

Literal, no ... but the statement is bad theology. There is no truth in it. 

In fact, the entire hymn is full of heresy. 

So, does your church sing this hymn? Would you support having it sung in a worship service? 

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6 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Literal, no ... but the statement is bad theology. There is no truth in it. 

In fact, the entire hymn is full of heresy. 

So, does your church sing this hymn? Would you support having it sung in a worship service? 

I repeat.......Anyways this would be another topic if you wish to answer and talk about hymns that are not "Theologically" correct

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6 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Rather like the discussion about eating meat offered to idols in the New Testament.

Not really...meat is not something "sensual" in nature. It doesn't affect the body with a driving beat...it doesn't affect the emotions instead of the spirit as music does. The adversary knows what he is doing in the area of music. Doesn't the Bible tell us to sing to ourselves in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs?" When we are using music in the church services, shouldn't we be using music that affects us in a POSITIVE spiritual manner instead of negatively affecting us, as most studies have shown that music with a driving, sensual beat does? Read the book I mentioned above. Also, talk to many people in the music industry as I have, and listen to how they say that they are surrounded by spirits moving them in certain ways. John Mellencamp is one. James Brown was another. Dan Fogelberg, Bobby Helms (he sang "Jingle Bell Rock" and "Frauline" in the 50s and is a relative of mine), and many others have all said the same thing. Ask any music professor at most IFB colleges. They'll give you the same information on how today's music isn't scriptural. I'm not saying whether or not this is my standing. I'm just saying that this is something that has been brought to my attention several times over the past 40 years. 

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2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Not really...meat is not something "sensual" in nature. It doesn't affect the body with a driving beat...it doesn't affect the emotions instead of the spirit as music does. The adversary knows what he is doing in the area of music. Doesn't the Bible tell us to sing to ourselves in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs?" When we are using music in the church services, shouldn't we be using music that affects us in a POSITIVE spiritual manner instead of negatively affecting us, as most studies have shown that music with a driving, sensual beat does? Read the book I mentioned above. Also, talk to many people in the music industry as I have, and listen to how they say that they are surrounded by spirits moving them in certain ways. John Mellencamp is one. James Brown was another. Dan Fogelberg, Bobby Helms (he sang "Jingle Bell Rock" and "Frauline" in the 50s and is a relative of mine), and many others have all said the same thing. Ask any music professor at most IFB colleges. They'll give you the same information on how today's music isn't scriptural. I'm not saying whether or not this is my standing. I'm just saying that this is something that has been brought to my attention several times over the past 40 years. 

Music can be very  sensual. Music can change moods. Compare a funeral dirge with a a John Phillips Souza march. One is depressing the other makes puts us in a happy mood. 

What references in the Bible do you use to determine if the music is scriptural or not?

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