Members BrotherTony Posted May 28, 2021 Members Share Posted May 28, 2021 19 minutes ago, SureWord said: So Lucifer was created and then a few days later rebelled and fell? This also leads to the question about the fall of man. How long after the "end of creation" did Adam and Eve last in the non-sinful state before they fell? There are so many variables that we're not given the answer to. So many things to delve into that aren't of real importance. If they were, God would have given us the answers in His Word. JMHO John Young 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hugh_Flower Posted May 28, 2021 Members Share Posted May 28, 2021 5 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said: I do not have time to go into this in detail ... maybe later when I am not so busy. But the use of light in the first verses of Genesis seem illogical and impossible if taken literally. For instance, what was the light before the sun and stars were created ... and yet in verse 3? How darkness and light mixed requiring separation? Just musing here. The light shined from God him self... This is an image of Christ’s power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted May 28, 2021 Author Share Posted May 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said: The light shined from God him self... This is an image of Christ’s power That is not what Genesis says. I was sure someone would say what you stated, but it doesn't hold. If God had been the light why, in verse 3, would he have to create light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hugh_Flower Posted May 28, 2021 Members Share Posted May 28, 2021 58 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said: That is not what Genesis says. I was sure someone would say what you stated, but it doesn't hold. If God had been the light why, in verse 3, would he have to create light? Because light isn’t God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Posted May 28, 2021 Members Share Posted May 28, 2021 Another argument against the viewpoint that states the days are 1000 years long (or any other indeterminate amount): Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Each day had an evening and a morning. If each period of sunlight (light until day four)*Â was not 12 hours and each period of night was not 12 hours, then all life would burn up during the 500 years of sunlight and freeze solid during the 500 years of darkness! *Creating light before creating the sun and all other secondary light sources (moon and stars) proves that the Lord God is the source of all life, not something else He had created. Pastor Scott Markle and John Young 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Young Posted May 29, 2021 Members Share Posted May 29, 2021 5 hours ago, Jerry said: Creating light before creating the sun and all other secondary light sources (moon and stars) proves that the Lord God is the source of all life, not something else He had created. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BrotherTony Posted May 29, 2021 Members Share Posted May 29, 2021 13 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said: The light shined from God him self... This is an image of Christ’s power A very good possibility! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BrotherTony Posted May 29, 2021 Members Share Posted May 29, 2021 13 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said: That is not what Genesis says. I was sure someone would say what you stated, but it doesn't hold. If God had been the light why, in verse 3, would he have to create light? Because, for one, in his foreknowledge, he knew man would fall away in the Garden, and there would be a need for the sun, moon and stars to rule the day and night, and to be used for the realization of the times and seasons. I think the Bible made that quite clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/29/2021 at 6:17 AM, BrotherTony said: Because, for one, in his foreknowledge, he knew man would fall away in the Garden, and there would be a need for the sun, moon and stars to rule the day and night, and to be used for the realization of the times and seasons. I think the Bible made that quite clear. Why would God create a being knowing that being would fall away from him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BrotherTony Posted May 30, 2021 Members Share Posted May 30, 2021 19 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said: Why would God create a being knowing that being would fall away from him? I think the Bible makes it quite clear in the parable about the potter and the clay. Some vessels are made to honor, and some to dishonor. God does ALL things for his own glory. Yet, even in his own glory he wants us to be in fellowship with him. Remember, our minds are NOT the mind of God. What we think, feel, or even believe is irrelevant as God is the only one who is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere. Our finite minds will NEVER grasp those concepts fully, just as we will never fully grasp the answer to your query. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 And the potter was not perfect destroyed the bad pottery. But God is perfect, so why would he knowingly create an imperfect being? To me that is the best argument for free will. God made we humans with the ability to choose right or wrong. That does not mean he predestined us to sin. I do not believe the mind of God knowingly brings forth imperfect thoughts. I cannot buy the idea that all things that happen in our world come about for his glory. That seems an easy out, to me, to blame God for everything and give ourselves excuses for sin. [This is all gently said.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted May 30, 2021 Moderators Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/27/2021 at 1:10 PM, Bouncing Bill said: I respectfully disagree with much you said. Why do you think time is not mentioned between versus 2 and 3? Okay, since this is the topic that helped create this new thread, let me say that time is definitely mentioned. "In the beginning..." To have a 'beginning' necessarily implies the presence of "time". This is, in fact, the start of time, the beginning. Contained within the first verse is the very triune creation: In the beginning (time), God created the Heaven (Space) and the earth, (matter). At the first, God created time for things to occur, space to put His creation, and the first piece of physical creation. There can be no beginning without time. Pastor Scott Markle and Jerry 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted May 30, 2021 Moderators Share Posted May 30, 2021 (edited) On 5/27/2021 at 10:53 AM, Bouncing Bill said: The problem, as I see it, with the word day is we are using English. But even in English the word day does not necessarily mean 24 hours. Example, "In the day of the Christopher Columbus Japan was almost unknown in the West." Here "the day" covers a number of years. So, the argument that in Genesis the English word 'day' means 24 hours does not hold. Neither does the argument that it means more than 24 hours. So, it comes down to an article of faith and does not make the supporter of 24 hours or the nonsupporter a heretic. The word 'day' in Hebrew is not restricted to 24 hours. It has a number of meanings. The Hebrew word יום (yom, Strong's #3117) means a "day," but not specifically a twenty-four hour period, but instead more generically like in "a day that something occurs." An example would be "a day of the month" (Genesis 8:4), "in that day Yahweh made a covenant" (Genesis 15:18) and "until the day" (Genesis 19:37). This word can also refer to the light part of the day in contrast to night (see Genesis 1:5 and Exodus 13:21), but the related word יומם (yomam, Strong's #3119) specifically means "daytime" as in Job 5:14. This word can be used for a time, age or season, but that is only when this word is in the plural form, which is ימים (yamim), and in my opinion should simply be translated as "days" and not time, age or season, as this can lead to incorrect interpretations of the text. The word היום (hayom) is the word יום (yom) with the prefix ה (ha) added and it literally means "the day," but we would translate it as "today." https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/day.htm Personally I believe the 7 days were varying periods of time. Genesis was never meant to be a book of science. If it had been written as science no one in the distant past would have understood it and the book would never have made it to our time. And, there are two creation stores; one in Genesis 1 and the second in Genesis 2.  Well, probably more than 90% of the time yom is used, it is referring to a literal day. But let's ignore yom for a moment, and look at "evening" and "Morning", in relation to each day. Evening is the Hebrew word "ereb", and the definition of that word is: "Evening, night, sunset". Out f 137 instances in scripture, only 3 are given another meaning, once as 'Arabia" and twice as "mingled". So 134 times it literally means evening or sunset or night. Morning s the Hebrew word "boqer", with a definition of: "morning, break of day, morning, of end of night, of coming of daylight, of coming of sunrise, of beginning of day, of bright joy after night of distress (fig.), morrow, next day, next morning" It is used 205 times in the OT, 191 times it literally means "morning". So when Yom is defined by ereb and boqer, which are both very explicit and literal in their meanings of evening and morning, yom must of necessity refer to a literal day. As far as two creation stories, I am surprised you believe that; this is an argument most atheists use to try to disprove the Bible, because they have no understanding of the word. Simply, as has been mentioned before, Chapter 1 is an overview of the entire creation, while chapter 2 begins God's relationship with Man, and describes the details of day 6. God creates one of each kind of land animal and bird for man to see and name, and to see that none will suit him as potential mate. Notice, God DIDN'T create any fish whatsoever in chapter two, no sea life at all, ONLY beasts and birds. Also no mention of bugs, crawling things, ONLY beasts and birds. Odd omission if it is a separate creation account. Chapter 1: Overview of creation week, chapter 2, God dealing with man on day 6. It's like, if I was gone from work for a week, and a coworker asks me, when I get back, where I was and I say, "Oh, I went to Disneyland." So maybe in his mind, I went there, spent the week at Disneyland, and came right home. But later I give him more detail, "Well, I spent three days at Disneyland, had some time so decided to do a day at Knott's Berry farm, since its close, spent a few hours at the beach, visited my cousin who lives in Orange county, stopped by to see my old house where I lived, then came home" Is he now going to accuse me of telling an entirely different version of my trip? Or will he understand that I am just filling him in on details I didn't previously give? Clearly, a reasonable person would understand the latter. So why is it so hard to see that in scripture? We have events in the gospels that seem different, yet in reality we understand that some give more details than others, and some give events others don't give, so we can get the larger picture through them all. And that's not unusual, as we get account of the same events in 1&2 Kings and 1&2 Chronicles, and even some of the prophets give accounts of some of those events, and in some we see different details, and we can understand that, so why is it difficult to understand this concept with 1&2 Genesis?  Edited May 30, 2021 by Ukulelemike Spelling Jerry and Pastor Scott Markle 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BrotherTony Posted May 30, 2021 Members Share Posted May 30, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said: And the potter was not perfect destroyed the bad pottery. But God is perfect, so why would he knowingly create an imperfect being? To me that is the best argument for free will. God made we humans with the ability to choose right or wrong. That does not mean he predestined us to sin. I do not believe the mind of God knowingly brings forth imperfect thoughts. I cannot buy the idea that all things that happen in our world come about for his glory. That seems an easy out, to me, to blame God for everything and give ourselves excuses for sin. [This is all gently said.] Seems to me that your ideology is one that says God is only in control "part of the time," instead of "all of the time." Was God in control when Adam fell? Yes, He was. He hadn't given up His sovereignty over the Earth. He ALLOWED certain things to take place. He KNEW things would work out as they did. If He didn't have foreknowledge, he wouldn't be omniscient. And please, let's not try to turn this into a Calvinist, Arminian debate. I can and have argued both sides on the subject, and I won't reveal where I stand on it. That's between me and the Lord. Remember this also, Jesus Christ called 12 disciples. He even stated he called 12 disciples and one of them was a devil. He doesn't condone sin, but he knows that a fallen human nature will lead to mankind sinning. Let's also try to remember, this thread is on NONE of this...it is on supposed to be on "The Gap Theory!" Â Edited May 30, 2021 by BrotherTony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bouncing Bill Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 God love us enough to give us free will. He is not responsible when we use that free will to do wrong. In that way God limited himself just as he limited himself by never telling and will never tell a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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