He maketh me to lie down

[Bro. West]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:53 AM, heartstrings said:

Sheep relieve themselves wherever they happen to be when the need arises. They do so while they are eating as well. When they do so, in the grass for instance, they will invariably avoid eating near that spot. Therefore when I place piles of hay on the ground, I'm careful to avoid putting it on manure piles. I also place the hay piles about 7 to 8 feet apart, which exceeds the length of a sheep's body, so that they don't defecate into the next pile as they are eating. I don't just put out a roll of hay; I pitchfork it out in numerous piles. They waste far less of it this way.

I don't know of any way to motivate sheep to defecate in a certain place; they just go where they please. But I have my land cross-fenced into 8 pastures for the purpose of rotating the sheep into a clean pasture after a few days; ideally 3 or 4 days. But as to the lying down, they tend to lie down in the same area of any given pasture each night. So they foul that area up  pretty quickly as they do relieve themselves when they arise every morning. 

My point was that, for a shepherd in a semi-arid region of sparse/scarce grass, it would be foolish for him to allow his sheep to lie down and foul up perfectly viable "food" knowing that it would be rendered useless by the next morning. I don't believe that psalm 23 can be compared, at least not entirely, to how an earthly shepherd cares for sheep. I believe that an ancient Middle Eastern shepherd, upon hearing this Psalm read, would have been dumbfounded by the realization that this was something extraordinarily different.

Rather than going to the Hebrew using Strong's work or others, let go to the English text and the arrangement of chapters.

Psalms 22 speaks of the crucifixion and a future seed, us Christians and without it there would be no green pastures or still waters and no assurance in Psalms 23. This is followed by Psalms 24 which speaks of the millennium, the 2^nd advent and His glory.

The arrangement is wonderful. Just like the first 6 books. You can not get to the promise land or green pastures under the law (Moses the number of books is five being the number of death), you need a Joshua, a Jesus The six book the number of man, the man Christ Jesus. And to put a cherry on top, the seventh book is Ruth. Boaz being a type of Christ and glory to God Ruth being a type of the Bride. Makes you to want to run around the church house!

Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Act 7:45

Ah the wonders of the English in a King James Bible

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, Bro. West said:

Rather than going to the Hebrew using Strong's work or others, let go to the English text and the arrangement of chapters.

Psalms 22 speaks of the crucifixion and a future seed, us Christians and without it there would be no green pastures or still waters and no assurance in Psalms 23. This is followed by Psalms 24 which speaks of the millennium, the 2^nd advent and His glory.

The arrangement is wonderful. Just like the first 6 books. You can not get to the promise land or green pastures under the law (Moses the number of books is five being the number of death), you need a Joshua, a Jesus The six book the number of man, the man Christ Jesus. And to put a cherry on top, the seventh book is Ruth. Boaz being a type of Christ and glory to God Ruth being a type of the Bride. Makes you to want to run around the church house!

Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Act 7:45

Ah the wonders of the English in a King James Bible

Please, show us where Ps 24 speaks of the millinial kingdom. Also, while you're at it, please explain to us how there were no "green pastures", "still waters," or "assurance"   in Davids time, and how there wouldn't be any without we who are Christians. Seems like they were there, or David wouldn't have been able to write about them.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

59 minutes ago, Bro. West said:

Rather than going to the Hebrew using Strong's work or others, let go to the English text and the arrangement of chapters.

Why should we not consider the Hebrew of the passage, considering that it is the very "jots and tittles" about which our Lord Jesus Christ promised would be (and has been) preserved for us unto this very day (and unto the end of the world)?  Indeed, the Hebrew IS that which the Lord our God originally gave and that which He has continued to preserve since that giving.  To disparage it or disregard it is dishonor to the preserved Word of God.

Ah, the wonders of our Lord God's promise to precisely preserve His very Word throughout the ages of the world.

(Note: A "jot" is a HEBREW letter, and a "tittle" is a small mark that distinguishes one HEBREW letter from another.)

[Bro. West]

8 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Why should we not consider the Hebrew of the passage, considering that it is the very "jots and tittles" about which our Lord Jesus Christ promised would be (and has been) preserved for us unto this very day (and unto the end of the world)?  Indeed, the Hebrew IS that which the Lord our God originally gave and that which He has continued to preserve since that giving.  To disparage it or disregard it is dishonor to the preserved Word of God.

Ah, the wonders of our Lord God's promise to precisely preserve His very Word throughout the ages of the world.

(Note: A "jot" is a HEBREW letter, and a "tittle" is a small mark that distinguishes one HEBREW letter from another.)

The author of this work believes without reservation that the King James Bible is more than just a priceless work of literary art, which it is. But it has indeed been preserved without error by God's providence as an infallible book that the common man in the English speaking world can hold and own, and the light it can give rests entirely on that man's faith in it and its Author. And all those who believe otherwise have either been duped, have an unclean motive, are just ignorant or see no issue of importance in having God's word readily available in an infallible form. No amount of linguist ability can give any extra light if there is doubt to its content, the Holy Spirit will not honour anyone that wants to subject this English Bible to an inferior position.

All my devotional end with this. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard men run to the Greek or Hebrew to correct the Book of books I would have a lot of money. First of all you do not have the original there are 66 of them. And terms like the Greek text is a lie there are 24 of them. And many well meaning men go to the original languages to improve upon the English text. The most boring sermons I have ever heard are those that constantly do this.                                                     Is the Bible you have in your hands the final authority for the English speaking people or are we to usurp it with lexicons and use them to improve it.  Are the plow boys in the congregation  to stay ignorant because they wot not these languages. I as well as many of the men I know have went to Bible school (over 45 years ago), big deal. Some of the great preacher that ever lives had no formal education in these matters. Do I believe God has preserved his words not Word.

  Psalms  6, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7, Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. You said the Word of God.   The use of Word is Jesus Christ, the use of word is the BOOK. I am not a scholar of the Bible because a scholar is one who hath mastered his subject. No man has mastered the Bible, yet. When I hold up my Bible and say it is the preserved, perfect word I mean the one I have in my hand.

                                    With brotherly love yours truly Bro. West

 

 

 

[BrotherTony]

17 minutes ago, Bro. West said:

The author of this work believes without reservation that the King James Bible is more than just a priceless work of literary art, which it is. But it has indeed been preserved without error by God's providence as an infallible book that the common man in the English speaking world can hold and own, and the light it can give rests entirely on that man's faith in it and its Author. And all those who believe otherwise have either been duped, have an unclean motive, are just ignorant or see no issue of importance in having God's word readily available in an infallible form. No amount of linguist ability can give any extra light if there is doubt to its content, the Holy Spirit will not honour anyone that wants to subject this English Bible to an inferior position.

All my devotional end with this. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard men run to the Greek or Hebrew to correct the Book of books I would have a lot of money. First of all you do not have the original there are 66 of them. And terms like the Greek text is a lie there are 24 of them. And many well meaning men go to the original languages to improve upon the English text. The most boring sermons I have ever heard are those that constantly do this.                                                     Is the Bible you have in your hands the final authority for the English speaking people or are we to usurp it with lexicons and use them to improve it.  Are the plow boys in the congregation  to stay ignorant because they wot not these languages. I as well as many of the men I know have went to Bible school (over 45 years ago), big deal. Some of the great preacher that ever lives had no formal education in these matters. Do I believe God has preserved his words not Word.

  Psalms  6, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7, Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. You said the Word of God.   The use of Word is Jesus Christ, the use of word is the BOOK. I am not a scholar of the Bible because a scholar is one who hath mastered his subject. No man has mastered the Bible, yet. When I hold up my Bible and say it is the preserved, perfect word I mean the one I have in my hand.

                                    With brotherly love yours truly Bro. West

 

 

 

If you hold to all that you're saying here, please, tell us, how were people saved before the 1611 came out? Huh? I hate to tell you,, there were other English translations made before the KJV. The KJV is partially based on these previoius Bibles. You have an untenable position here. I hate to tell you, but the "All Scripture is given" also includes those that are from other underlying texts. They still preach Christ. Don't get me wrong, I love my KJV. I use it in preaching, Bible study, and witnessing. However, the other translations are able to be used for those same purposes. I mostly use mine for commentary on certain passages. Still, you sound like a Ruckmanite...not an accusation, but it would help if you clarify if you are or aren't. That way we know exactly who/what we're dealing with.

[Bro. West]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

Please, show us where Ps 24 speaks of the millinial kingdom. Also, while you're at it, please explain to us how there were no "green pastures", "still waters," or "assurance"   in Davids time, and how there wouldn't be any without we who are Christians. Seems like they were there, or David wouldn't have been able to write about them.

 You misunderstood the word no. I am making a spiritual application without the crucifixion (Ps 22) there would be no pastures or still waters for the sheep (Christian Ps.23). Ps 24 Is another spiritual application. When does the King of glory come in (literally) the 2nd advent and the millennial reign. Eze 37:24  with David  and Jesus Isa.63:1, Isa 66:23, Isa.16:5, Isa.9::6-7 and Zec. 9:10 

                                         Hope this will due Bro. West

[heartstrings]

When?

In my case, the King of Glory came into my "everlasting door" around 12 PM CST on May 11, 1986.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:34 AM, Bro. West said:

The author of this work believes without reservation that the King James Bible is more than just a priceless work of literary art, which it is. But it has indeed been preserved without error by God's providence as an infallible book that the common man in the English speaking world can hold and own, and the light it can give rests entirely on that man's faith in it and its Author. And all those who believe otherwise have either been duped, have an unclean motive, are just ignorant or see no issue of importance in having God's word readily available in an infallible form. No amount of linguist ability can give any extra light if there is doubt to its content, the Holy Spirit will not honour anyone that wants to subject this English Bible to an inferior position.

All my devotional end with this. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard men run to the Greek or Hebrew to correct the Book of books I would have a lot of money. First of all you do not have the original there are 66 of them. And terms like the Greek text is a lie there are 24 of them. And many well meaning men go to the original languages to improve upon the English text. The most boring sermons I have ever heard are those that constantly do this.                                                     Is the Bible you have in your hands the final authority for the English speaking people or are we to usurp it with lexicons and use them to improve it.  Are the plow boys in the congregation  to stay ignorant because they wot not these languages. I as well as many of the men I know have went to Bible school (over 45 years ago), big deal. Some of the great preacher that ever lives had no formal education in these matters. Do I believe God has preserved his words not Word.

  Psalms  6, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7, Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. You said the Word of God.   The use of Word is Jesus Christ, the use of word is the BOOK. I am not a scholar of the Bible because a scholar is one who hath mastered his subject. No man has mastered the Bible, yet. When I hold up my Bible and say it is the preserved, perfect word I mean the one I have in my hand.

                                    With brotherly love yours truly Bro. West

Indeed, "the words of the LORD ARE pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of the earth, purified seven times."  And those "words of the LORD" which are so very pure were given by the Lord our God Himself in the Hebrew and Greek languages.  In fact, when David penned those words in Psalm 12:6 under the direct inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, David was writing in the Hebrew language, and was writing about the Hebrew language Bible.  Indeed, as per Psalm 12:7 the Lord our God promised to keep and preserve those very words, which were in Hebrew, from the generation of David unto forever.  At the time that David penned under direct inspiration of God the Holy Spirit the truth and promise of Psalm 12:6-7, the English language itself did not even exist; and the 1611 King James translation would not exist for thousands of years yet to come.  Thus David under the direct inspiration of God the Holy Spirit was speaking about the Hebrew Bible that he had in his hands in his day.  THAT was the pure Word and words of the Lord, and that was what the Lord God promised to preserve.  As for myself, I will NOT dishonor that which the Lord our God has directly given to us and that which the Lord our God has directly preserved for us.  You can disrespect, disparage, and disregard the Hebrew and Greek Word of God that the Lord our God by HIs own Holy Spirit directly inspired for mankind; but I WILL NOT!  You can disrespect, disparage, and disregard the Hebrew and Greek Word of God that the Lord our God has divinely promised to preserve forever and has providentially continued to preserve according to His own promise; but I WILL NOT!  Indeed, I myself will even view your disrespect, disparagement, and disregard for that which the Lord our God directly inspired and continually preserves for us as a separational offense before the Lord our God.  You see, you CANNOT disrespect, disparage, and disregard the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures without committing offense against the VERY Word of God, because they ARE the VERY Word of God.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle
spelling

[Pastor Scott Markle]

5 hours ago, Bro. West said:

The arrangement is wonderful. Just like the first 6 books. You can not get to the promise land or green pastures under the law (Moses the number of books is five being the number of death), you need a Joshua, a Jesus The six book the number of man, the man Christ Jesus. And to put a cherry on top, the seventh book is Ruth. Boaz being a type of Christ and glory to God Ruth being a type of the Bride. Makes you to want to run around the church house!

Actually, using such a manner of "numerology" is a little bit skewed.  You make the first five books of the Bible, the books of Moses, equivalent to the Law.  Then you make the sixth book of the Bible, Joshua, equivalent to Jesus (since Joshua's name is simply the Hebrew pronunciation for the name "Jesus").  And then you make the seventh book of the Bible, which you claim is Ruth, to be equivalent to the Bride.  HOWEVER, Ruth is NOT actually the seventh book of the Bible.  It is the EIGHTH book of the Bible.  Rather, JUDGES is the seventh book of the Bible, that is -- the book of the Bible wherein "every man did that which was right in his own eyes."  Seems to mess up the whole numerology idea concerning seven as the number of perfection in relation to the first seven books of the Bible.  Oops!!! 

Furthermore, concerning the book of Joshua as representing the Law as a failure to bring anyone into the Promised Land - Have you considered the Lord God's first instruction to Joshua in the opening chapter of the book:

Joshua 1:6-9 -- "Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."

Seems as if the Law, which God's own servant Moses had commanded, was really, really, REALLY important for Joshua and the children of Israel to have divine success in possessing the Promised Land.

Now, do not misunderstand - For I fully agree that the Law has NO power whatsoever for our eternal salvation, or even for our daily sanctification, and that the Lord Jesus Christ, through faith in Him, is the ONLY means for both eternal salvation and daily sanctification.  However, I am confronting your attempt at "numerology" - It simply is not Biblically accurate to your point.

[Jerry]

6 hours ago, Bro. West said:

The arrangement is wonderful. Just like the first 6 books. You can not get to the promise land or green pastures under the law (Moses the number of books is five being the number of death), you need a Joshua, a Jesus The six book the number of man, the man Christ Jesus. And to put a cherry on top, the seventh book is Ruth. Boaz being a type of Christ and glory to God Ruth being a type of the Bride. Makes you to want to run around the church house!

Ah the wonders of the English in a King James Bible

You mention the King James Bible, then you state Ruth is the seventh book - in the King James Bible, Ruth is the eight book. So your theory doesn't fly. Any theory based on some kind of numerolology like you are trying here is destined for failure as even the order in our English Bible is different than the Hebrew Bible.

Another thing, five (when used symbolically) in the Bible always pictures grace, not death. Don't know who you've been studying.

[Bro. West]

19 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, using such a manner of "numerology" is a little bit skewed.  You make the first five books of the Bible, the books of Moses, equivalent to the Law.  Then you make the sixth book of the Bible, Joshua, equivalent to Jesus (since Joshua's name is simply the Hebrew pronunciation for the name "Jesus").  And then you make the seventh book of the Bible, which you claim is Ruth, to be equivalent to the Bride.  HOWEVER, Ruth is NOT actually the seventh book of the Bible.  It is the EIGHTH book of the Bible.  Rather, JUDGES is the seventh book of the Bible, that is -- the book of the Bible wherein "every man did that which was right in his own eyes."  Seems to mess up the whole numerology idea concerning seven as the number of perfection in relation to the first seven books of the Bible.  Oops!!! 

Furthermore, concerning the book of Joshua as representing the Law as a failure to bring anyone into the Promised Land - Have you considered the Lord God's first instruction to Joshua in the opening chapter of the book:

Joshua 1:6-9 -- "Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest."

Seems as if the Law, which God's own servant Moses had commanded, was really, really, REALLY important for Joshua and the children of Israel to have divine success in possessing the Promised Land.

Now, do not misunderstand - For I fully agree that the Law has NO power whatsoever for our eternal salvation, or even for our daily sanctification, and that the Lord Jesus Christ, through faith in Him, is the ONLY means for both eternal salvation and daily sanctification.  However, I am confronting your attempt at "numerology" - It simply is not Biblically accurate to your point.

For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Joh 1:17
Five books by Moses and one by Joshua(JESUS) into the promise land. We do not get to the promise land (heaven) by Moses (The law) but by the Savior a Joshua (Jesus) The type is plain.

[Jerry]

4 hours ago, Bro. West said:

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard men run to the Greek or Hebrew to correct the Book of books I would have a lot of money. First of all you do not have the original there are 66 of them. And terms like the Greek text is a lie there are 24 of them.

Most of the regular members here use the Hebrew and Greek tools to help us understand the English of our King James Bible, not to correct it. I have seen you make a few assumptions based on an understanding of the words in a passage. At least we are going to sound lexicons (which are language dictionaries) and studying the meaning out instead of making up false doctrine to fit our misunderstanding.

And who cares if there are 24 different Greek texts (of which I doubt) - they may or may not be versions of the TR (you have not specified - you just threw out a blanket statement intending to slight all Greek texts), but when we go to Strong's Concordance, we are going to the Greek text that is the closest to the KJV - or to put it another way, going to the words underlying each actual passage in our King James Bible, regardless of which specific Greek text someone says a particular verse comes from.

If it ever really mattered, people here could probably discuss Stephanus' Greek text or Scrivener's, but it is apparent you have a disregard for those two primary Greek sources. Don't know what 22 other ones you have buried in your backyard.

[heartstrings]

18 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Most of the regular members here use the Hebrew and Greek tools to help us understand the English of our King James Bible, not to correct it. I have seen you make a few assumptions based on an understanding of the words in a passage. At least we are going to sound lexicons (which are language dictionaries) and studying the meaning out instead of making up false doctrine to fit our misunderstanding.

And who cares if there are 24 different Greek texts (of which I doubt) - they may or may not be versions of the TR (you have not specified - you just threw out a blanket statement intending to slight all Greek texts), but when we go to Strong's Concordance, we are going to the Greek text that is the closest to the KJV - or to put it another way, going to the words underlying each actual passage in our King James Bible, regardless of which specific Greek text someone says a particular verse comes from.

If it ever really mattered, people here could probably discuss Stephanus' Greek text or Scrivener's, but it is apparent you have a disregard for those two primary Greek sources. Don't know what 22 other ones you have buried in your backyard.

Exactly

[Pastor Scott Markle]

7 hours ago, Bro. West said:

For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Joh 1:17
Five books by Moses and one by Joshua(JESUS) into the promise land. We do not get to the promise land (heaven) by Moses (The law) but by the Savior a Joshua (Jesus) The type is plain.

Indeed, the law was given from the Lord God by Moses; but "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ," as per John 1:17 - a truth that I hold with absolute conviction, and a truth that I did not deny above --

7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now, do not misunderstand - For I fully agree that the Law has NO power whatsoever for our eternal salvation, or even for our daily sanctification, and that the Lord Jesus Christ, through faith in Him, is the ONLY means for both eternal salvation and daily sanctification.  

However, although we New Testament believers do not spiritually get to the promised land (which is NOT actually a type of heaven, but a type of the abundant Christian life) through the law, but by "the grace and truth" of Jesus Christ, Joshua (the one of the book of Joshua) did NOT bring in "grace and truth" for the children of Israel as a replacement for the law of Moses, but actually led the children of Israel to possess the Promised Land in direct accord with the law of Moses.  Again I say - your attempt at a numerology type is skewed.

_________________________________

I also noticed from your latest posting in discussion with me that you no longer made reference to the type of the book of Ruth as the seventh book of the Bible.  At this point I shall assume that you have accepted your error in that regard, even if you have not expressed an acknowledgement of that error.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle